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What's the difference between a 'real' alternate timeline and an 'unreal' alternate timeline, in this context?

I'm not endorsing the phrase or using it myself, which is why I put it in quotes. The context is that STO isn't claiming the novelverse is an alternate timeline at all. That's something that a tie-in novelist for Pocket decided to put in as an Easter egg, just a wink at the audience. What I meant was that it's not meant to be taken as anything more than that.
 
I'm not endorsing the phrase or using it myself, which is why I put it in quotes. The context is that STO isn't claiming the novelverse is an alternate timeline at all. That's something that a tie-in novelist for Pocket decided to put in as an Easter egg, just a wink at the audience. What I meant was that it's not meant to be taken as anything more than that.
If Data's explanation of multiple timelines in 'Parallels' is correct, and there are an infinite number of parallel timelines, does one of them HAVE to be exactly like STOs timeline? I have this argument with my friends all the time. I say that you can count infinitely upwards and you'll only ever get farther away from the number one, you'll never 'loop back' and come up with a number closer to one than two was, so it stands to reason that you can have infinite timelines without any of them being exactly as someone might suppose- so the common argument from my friends is that the movie 'Aliens' has played out, in reality, in one of the infinite timelines where aliens like that exactly evolved and interacted with humans in precisely the form shown in the movie (down to someone called 'Ripley' who looks exactly like Sigourney Weaver!)- they not only say this MUST have happened, but that it must have happened an infinite number of times, and that I don't 'grasp infinity' if I disagree. I say that the only things that can happen are things that can happen WITHIN the range of probability that they might ever occur. Rick & Morty call this the 'central finite curve'. There may be an infinite number of dimensions in both directions beyond the curve, but Rick is only interested in the ones near to him on the curve of probability, where there are other Ricks. The events of the movie 'Aliens' have not happened in a alternate timeline because they were never *likely* to happen within the history of the universe, on any probability.

Who is right? Am I failing to grasp infinity, or are they?
 
I'm not endorsing the phrase or using it myself, which is why I put it in quotes. The context is that STO isn't claiming the novelverse is an alternate timeline at all. That's something that a tie-in novelist for Pocket decided to put in as an Easter egg, just a wink at the audience. What I meant was that it's not meant to be taken as anything more than that.
Also, as an aside, the Klingon joke in Trials and Tribble-ations was meant as a wink to the audience, but Enterprise ran with it seriously. Both Marvel and DC used parallel timelines as a way to explain how different continuities interacted with each other, is it that unreasonable that Trek, which is already replete with alternate timelines, might do the same to resolve it's alternate continuities (and, indeed, has explicitly done with the reboot movies, and implicitly done on 'Enterprise').
 
The way I see it is this: in an infinite multiverse, the chance of any given universe turning out the way it did, is (simultaneously) infinitely good, and infinitely remote.

Meaning: It may be infinitely small of a likelihood that any of the alternate timelines will turn out like STO did. Yet at the same time, it's no less likely than any other.

What's the difference between a 'real' alternate timeline and an 'unreal' alternate timeline, in this context?

"Nothing unreal exists." :vulcan:
 
So how many big events have been told multiple ways in Trek Lit and comics?
I know we've had at least 2 or 3 versions of the Kirk and Co.'s last mission of the 5YM, with two of them being Mission's End from IDW, and one of the issues in DC's first TOS series
I think there have been several different versions of Kirk's Kobayashi Maru, including one in the book Kobayashi Maru. There are at least two different resurrections for Data, one in the Cold Equations books and one in the Star Trek Online universe.
I think there have been at least a couple versions of what happened on Tarsus IV, with one in The Autobiography of James T. Kirk.
I haven't read either of them, but I'm pretty sure Federation: The First 150 Years presented a different Romulan War and early UFP from the Enterprise: Romulan War and Rise of The Federation books.
There have

What are the others?
The unification attempt between Vulcans & Romulans are told differently in Vulcan Heart novel and in TNG Unification episodes
 
Also, as an aside, the Klingon joke in Trials and Tribble-ations was meant as a wink to the audience, but Enterprise ran with it seriously.
Well, really, what else could they do? Once you decide to finally tell the story of why there were different types of Klingons, you pretty much have to stay consistent with what's already been said about it. Otherwise, the hardcore Trekkers would all jump down their throats.
 
If Data's explanation of multiple timelines in 'Parallels' is correct, and there are an infinite number of parallel timelines, does one of them HAVE to be exactly like STOs timeline?
True, but what some people fail to understand is that STO and the novelverse can't take place in the same multiverse because of the sheerly different takes on the (fictitious) laws of physics. Unless, I suppose, the Star Trek franchise decided to throw out logic and be like Doctor Who. Then it might be plausible.
 
And STO's take on the Future Guy. The Envoy brings the Na'kuhl and the Sphere Builders into his Temporal Liberation Front. But onscreen in ENT, the Suliban Cabal's sponsor warned Archer's Enterprise against the Builders' machinations. And deployed Silik against the Na'kuhl in 1944.
Does the game actually say that Noye is the same Future Guy who sponsored the Suliban Cabal?
 
True, but what some people fail to understand is that STO and the novelverse can't take place in the same multiverse because of the sheerly different takes on the (fictitious) laws of physics. Unless, I suppose, the Star Trek franchise decided to throw out logic and be like Doctor Who. Then it might be plausible.
Well, I think we can separate the 'plot points' or history of what occured in the STO canon, with the more gaming-related 'event' in STO when a ship named 'BigBallz6969' repeatedly destroyed three Romulan cruisers to harvest XP.
 
The idea behind alternate timelines is that they used to be a single timeline, but then diverged at some point in history. This doesn't apply to STO and the Novelverse, since they have vastly different interpretations of the Iconians, the Silent Enemy aliens, Kal Dano and Ghee P'Trell, which have no in-universe explanation.
 
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There's not really any explanation for the magic universe from "Magicks of Megas-Tu" or the Imaginationland universe from "Where No Man Has Gone Before" or the reverse universe from "The Counter-clock Incident" either. Or even DS9's Celestial Temple, if that is its own universe of weirdness.

The STO novel The Needs of the Many does explicitly mention the events of Greater Than the Sum and Destiny as an alternate universe along with what's now known as the Kelvin timeline, and suggests unknown time travels may he responsible for them. It was put in as an easter egg rather than a binding part of Trek lore (and as Christopher pointed out, doesn't work if you look too closely), but it's there as an option should the reader wish it. I don't play STO, so I've little knowledge of the game, but I think the STO novel works as an alternate reality to the novelverse.
 
Well, I think we can separate the 'plot points' or history of what occured in the STO canon, with the more gaming-related 'event' in STO when a ship named 'BigBallz6969' repeatedly destroyed three Romulan cruisers to harvest XP.

See I want a book that is written like that.

Captain Picard was considering a spot of lunch when the call came in to his ready room.

"Captain, we are being hailed by the USS Phil McCavity, Captain Motherfodder wishes to speak to you about some major lulz".
 
If Data's explanation of multiple timelines in 'Parallels' is correct, and there are an infinite number of parallel timelines, does one of them HAVE to be exactly like STOs timeline? I have this argument with my friends all the time. I say that you can count infinitely upwards and you'll only ever get farther away from the number one, you'll never 'loop back' and come up with a number closer to one than two was, so it stands to reason that you can have infinite timelines without any of them being exactly as someone might suppose- so the common argument from my friends is that the movie 'Aliens' has played out, in reality, in one of the infinite timelines where aliens like that exactly evolved and interacted with humans in precisely the form shown in the movie (down to someone called 'Ripley' who looks exactly like Sigourney Weaver!)- they not only say this MUST have happened, but that it must have happened an infinite number of times, and that I don't 'grasp infinity' if I disagree. I say that the only things that can happen are things that can happen WITHIN the range of probability that they might ever occur. Rick & Morty call this the 'central finite curve'. There may be an infinite number of dimensions in both directions beyond the curve, but Rick is only interested in the ones near to him on the curve of probability, where there are other Ricks. The events of the movie 'Aliens' have not happened in a alternate timeline because they were never *likely* to happen within the history of the universe, on any probability.

Who is right? Am I failing to grasp infinity, or are they?

The “infinite variations allowing any random thing to happen” idea is a popular handwave for justifying nonsensical alternate realities, but it doesn’t make any scientific sense. Infinity is too abstract a concept to really work with. Statistically speaking, if there’s an infinite number of possibilities to choose from, then the probability of any single one of them is effectively zero, so it’s not really a mathematically meaningful argument. Mathematics can talk about the limit of a quantity as a related quantity tends toward infinity, but treating infinity itself as a quantity is meaningless.

Many-worlds quantum theory doesn’t say anything about infinity, or about every imaginable combination of events being required to happen. It just says that the universe’s quantum state is a superposition of multiple alternative probability states. And those states would all branch from a common origin, so the only available outcomes would be those that are actually possible results given the starting conditions. (For instance, if you drive north and reach a T-shaped intersection, there might be a timeline where you turn east and one where you turn west, but there are none where you continue driving north beyond the intersection.) So that would limit the number of possible universes that could feasibly result; it doesn’t mean that any random, nonsensical scenario you can think up “must” happen in some reality. (Not to mention that it actually applies to quantum-level variations in the states of subatomic particles, which rarely make any observable difference on a human or cosmic scale anyway.)

The problem with infinity applies even more when we’re talking about timelines that actually interact, which we usually are when it comes to fiction. Again, the probability of reaching any given timeline in an infinite number of timelines is zero. In other words, it would take an infinite amount of time to find it out of all the possible options. So even if the proposed alternative reality did technically exist, it would be unreachable, and thus for all practical purposes, it would not exist. If two or more timelines are able to interact, then they must be part of some finite, associated set, and with a finite set, you don’t get to use the “infinity makes random possibilities mandatory” excuse.


Also, as an aside, the Klingon joke in Trials and Tribble-ations was meant as a wink to the audience, but Enterprise ran with it seriously. Both Marvel and DC used parallel timelines as a way to explain how different continuities interacted with each other, is it that unreasonable that Trek, which is already replete with alternate timelines, might do the same to resolve it's alternate continuities (and, indeed, has explicitly done with the reboot movies, and implicitly done on 'Enterprise').

We're not talking hypotheticals here. The specific question that was asked was whether STO actually did claim that the novelverse was an alternate timeline. The specfic, correct answer to that question is, no, it did not, because the claim was made by a tie-in novelist rather than by STO itself, and because it was in the context of a chapter that was basically an extended in-joke.



There's not really any explanation for the magic universe from "Magicks of Megas-Tu" or the Imaginationland universe from "Where No Man Has Gone Before" or the reverse universe from "The Counter-clock Incident" either. Or even DS9's Celestial Temple, if that is its own universe of weirdness.

Okay... The problem here is that fiction insists on confusing the issue by using "timeline" and "universe" interchangeably. But they're two completely different things. A different universe is merely a different place, a separate spacetime continuum that was created separately and developed according to its own distinct physical laws. It would have it own completely separate stars and planets and species, if it even had stars and planets and species at all, since its physical laws might not allow for them. But a parallel timeline is a distinct quantum state of our physical universe. It's an alternative history that branched off from ours at some point in the past. It's normally impossible to access or interact with, so it functionally might as well be a separate universe, but it's actually another aspect of this universe, made of the exact same particles and occupying the exact same place, but in a parallel quantum state that we can't perceive. So it has the same laws of physics, the same stars, the same planets, the same species, even the same individuals.

The continuums you mention there are all separate universes, not parallel timelines. In the case of TNG's "Where No One Has Gone Before" (which I assume is what you meant), it was a part of our own universe, but one that was so unreachably distant that its laws of physics differed from those in our observable universe, so that it was physically equivalent to a separate universe. (This may well be the case in reality. Our observable universe's physics are uniform because our spacetime inflated so quickly that any variations in physical law were "flattened out," with regions having different physical constants being whisked beyond the limits of what we're able to observe at the speed of light over the age of the universe.) The "Megas-tu" universe was supposed to be the separate continuum from which matter emerged into our universe, under the discredited continuous-creation theory of cosmology. The Celestial Temple is a pocket universe that exists outside of time. "The Counter-Clock Incident" was just a stupid, stupid episode that made no damn sense.
 
Statistically speaking, if there’s an infinite number of possibilities to choose from, then the probability of any single one of them is effectively zero, so it’s not really a mathematically meaningful argument.

All but a finite number, to be precise (since the distribution doesn't have to be uniform). :p
 
Okay... The problem here is that fiction insists on confusing the issue by using "timeline" and "universe" interchangeably. But they're two completely different things. A different universe is merely a different place, a separate spacetime continuum that was created separately and developed according to its own distinct physical laws. It would have it own completely separate stars and planets and species, if it even had stars and planets and species at all, since its physical laws might not allow for them.

So what about Fluidic Space? Memory Beta describes it as an "extra-dimensional realm that was filled with an organic liquid medium rather than the open space of the Milky Way galaxy's dimension". I suppose extra-dimensional could mean another universe, as you said timeline and universe are quite often used interchangable, so maybe "extra-dimensional" too means universe?

But a parallel timeline is a distinct quantum state of our physical universe. It's an alternative history that branched off from ours at some point in the past. It's normally impossible to access or interact with, so it functionally might as well be a separate universe, but it's actually another aspect of this universe, made of the exact same particles and occupying the exact same place, but in a parallel quantum state that we can't perceive. So it has the same laws of physics, the same stars, the same planets, the same species, even the same individuals.
So in Yesterday's Enterprise when the E-C entered the anomaly (or whatever it was) it created a timeline where the Federation and the Klingon Empire were at war. But when it returned (with Tasha) it did create a new timeline that existed parallel to the war timeline, but was not the same as the "original" (hah) timeline.
 
But when it returned (with Tasha) it did create a new timeline that existed parallel to the war timeline, but was not the same as the "original" (hah) timeline.

In a very real sense, the Klingon War timeline IS the original timeline.

The one without the war - the Trek timeline we're used to seeing, and which we in fact did see up until that episode - is the REVISED timeline, the one where Tasha goes back with the Enterprise-C. This timeline can't exist without that.
 
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So what about Fluidic Space? Memory Beta describes it as an "extra-dimensional realm that was filled with an organic liquid medium rather than the open space of the Milky Way galaxy's dimension". I suppose extra-dimensional could mean another universe, as you said timeline and universe are quite often used interchangable, so maybe "extra-dimensional" too means universe?

I'm surprised that even has to be asked. Fluidic space is overtly a separate continuum with different physics -- it doesn't have stars or planets or duplicate humans or any of that. Nobody could possibly mistake it for an alternate timeline.

And yes, "dimension" is another term that fiction tends to toss around interchangeably with "universe" and "timeline." It's not completely wrong in this case, since other physical universes would necessarily have to be separated from ours by some higher-dimensional space (except in the "Where No One Has Gone Before" case where it's just unreachably far away within our own continuum and thus functionally equivalent to a separate universe).


So in Yesterday's Enterprise when the E-C entered the anomaly (or whatever it was) it created a timeline where the Federation and the Klingon Empire were at war. But when it returned (with Tasha) it did create a new timeline that existed parallel to the war timeline, but was not the same as the "original" (hah) timeline.

No, the timeline where the E-C went back with alt-Tasha was the "original" timeline, insofar as that term has any meaning. People constantly make the mistake of assuming that the order in which the viewers and characters experience events is the single, universal, objective reality of things, but that's misunderstanding the very nature of time travel, which allows effect to come before cause. A lot of things in time travel are causal loops where the time travel was "always" part of events, even if the characters and viewers didn't know that it was until the timeline caught up with their involvement in things.
 
No, the timeline where the E-C went back with alt-Tasha was the "original" timeline, insofar as that term has any meaning. People constantly make the mistake of assuming that the order in which the viewers and characters experience events is the single, universal, objective reality of things, but that's misunderstanding the very nature of time travel, which allows effect to come before cause. A lot of things in time travel are causal loops where the time travel was "always" part of events, even if the characters and viewers didn't know that it was until the timeline caught up with their involvement in things.
This bugs me a lot. Not to mention that since the war timeline was the "original timeline", why doesn't Guinan, with her special spatiotemporal perspective, in every other episode have nasty visions of the war timeline?
 
This bugs me a lot. Not to mention that since the war timeline was the "original timeline", why doesn't Guinan, with her special spatiotemporal perspective, in every other episode have nasty visions of the war timeline?

"Original" is a meaningless phrase when talking about a double-timeline Mobius loop like this or "Yesteryear," where characters in an alternate timeline have to perceive the effects of a time travel not occurring in order to make sure that it does occur. Words like "original" assume there's a single, universally correct definition of the progression of time, and that idea is disproven by the very existence of time travel. Just because a given observer perceives two timelines in a given chronological order and considers one to come "first," that doesn't mean the entire universe agrees with that subjective view.

It would be more correct to say that the temporal anomaly at Narendra III caused the timeline to branch into two parallel, simultaneous histories, one in which a UFP-Klingon war happened because of the Enterprise-C's disappearance, and one in which that war was averted because the E-C came back from the other timeline's future moments after it left. Neither one is the "original," because they both arise at the same moment and are both the result of the anomaly's presence. It's a single self-consistent retrocausal interaction that involves two parallel histories and two points in time.
 
Think of it like a stream that's diverted into two paths, Enterprise, but that a half-mile downstream is again diverted back together into a single path. There is no "original" branch, just two separate routes. Guinan's vision was because she was picked up from one branch and set down in the other, and saw that she had an unexpected landscape around her as she went down the river, while everyone else just flowed down it naturally and so it's what they'd always expected to see. Not because it wasn't the original, but because it wasn't the one she came from.
 
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