Was Kes a Good Character?

[stardream]

But early, B'lanna was supposed to be attracted to Chacotay remember?

If you are talking about the 'dream' B'Elanna had in that one episode it wasn't about Chakotay specifically no more than Kes' fantasy was about Tom being in pain or Tom's fantasy was about his father yelling at him. B'Elanna's deepest desire was to love and be loved and Chakotay just happened to be the only guy she was closest to at the time. If she had been closer to Harry or Tom it might well have been one of them who showed up in the dream. This is straight from Roxanne Dawson btw. Kes' deepest desire was to be needed. Tom's was to stand up to his father.

 

[Tracy Trek]

B'Elanna's deepest desire was to love and be loved and Chakotay just happened to be the only guy she was closest to at the time.

Chakotay was likely the one she trusted the most at the time. Later on I feel like she sometimes saw him as a surrogate father figure.

 

[Lynx]

Please understand, sir, that I do love Kes, and rightly so. I'm not trying to make an example out of her. I just feel that she was kind thrown to the wolves, from the start and that if she'd been pre-planned with greater care, she would've proved a boon to ratings ... and indispensable to The Powers That Be. Unfortunately, nothing could've been done about her allergies to the makeup. She would've had to wear that wig and having done so, her elfen-pixie outfits would've had to go out the window. I completely agree about the atrocious catsuits they forced on Jennifer. They made her appear to be trying to get attention and it didn't suit Kes, at all. I can't help but feel cheated by those 4 Kesless seasons of VOY. Sometimes, I find myself annoyed at Seven, simply for not being Kes ...

I totally agree. I had the same feelings about Seven at that time, in my case they were even more fueled by the rude behavior of some immature Seven fans which I encountered on one of the first Voyager forums I was posting on (which don't exist anymore).

As for the allergies, they didn't show until season 3 so maybe they could have found some other glue or whatever which didn't cause allergic reactions.

I agree that they could have done more with the character but I must state that when they gave her the chance to shine, she really did. Episodes like "Cold Fire", "Persistence Of Vision", "Warlord", "Darkling" are brilliant and there are some other episodes where she's not the main character in which she also makes a great impression.

And I don't buy that crap from those in charge about "difficulties to come up with good stories about her" and "the character had reached its limit". If an amateur like me can come up with decent Kes stories, then I expect the same and more from professional writers.

Anyway, it was a waste for the series when she was kicked out. With her will to learn and explore, she personified the spirit of Star trek, a spirit which was lost when she was dumped.

By the way, since we're both Admirals, you don't have to adress me as "sir".

 

[Lynx]

If you are talking about the 'dream' B'Elanna had in that one episode it wasn't about Chakotay specifically no more than Kes' fantasy was about Tom being in pain or Tom's fantasy was about his father yelling at him. B'Elanna's deepest desire was to love and be loved and Chakotay just happened to be the only guy she was closest to at the time. If she had been closer to Harry or Tom it might well have been one of them who showed up in the dream. This is straight from Roxanne Dawson btw. Kes' deepest desire was to be needed. Tom's was to stand up to his father.

I have to disagree here. I always got the impression that B'Elanna was deeply in love with Chakotay, ever since the time in the Maquis. But when she realized that Chakotay was more attracted to Janeway, she gave up and finally settled with Tom instead, Tom who she didn't seem to like from the beginning.

 

[locutus101]

If you are talking about the 'dream' B'Elanna had in that one episode it wasn't about Chakotay specifically no more than Kes' fantasy was about Tom being in pain or Tom's fantasy was about his father yelling at him. B'Elanna's deepest desire was to love and be loved and Chakotay just happened to be the only guy she was closest to at the time. If she had been closer to Harry or Tom it might well have been one of them who showed up in the dream. This is straight from Roxanne Dawson btw. Kes' deepest desire was to be needed. Tom's was to stand up to his father.

And it could also be that she was secretly/unconsciously in love with him, there's no way to tell. As Freud once said: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

 

[2takesfrakes]

By the way, since we're both Admirals, you don't have to adress me as "sir".

HA!!! When I saw myself "promoted," I just busted out laughing, about it. Is there any way to hide these rank and insignia thingies, by the way? I never did care for that aspect of it. Just showing my name and avatar are more than sufficient, for my 'needs.'

 

[stardream]

I have to disagree here. I always got the impression that B'Elanna was deeply in love with Chakotay, ever since the time in the Maquis. But when she realized that Chakotay was more attracted to Janeway, she gave up and finally settled with Tom instead, Tom who she didn't seem to like from the beginning.

And it could also be that she was secretly/unconsciously in love with him, there's no way to tell. As Freud once said: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

We are just going to have to disagree here. I'm going by what the actress said who knows the character better than any of us. She did not settle for Tom. She was in love with him for a long time before she ever admitted it. Not being able to get with Chakotay had nothing to do with it.

The dreams were about needs...not fantasy partners unless you think Kes was harboring some sort of sadistic fantasy about Tom which I don't believe for a minute. Her need was to be needed.

 

[locutus101]

We are just going to have to disagree here. I'm going by what the actress said who knows the character better than any of us. She did not settle for Tom. She was in love with him for a long time before she ever admitted it. Not being able to get with Chakotay had nothing to do with it.

The dreams were about needs...not fantasy partners unless you think Kes was harboring some sort of sadistic fantasy about Tom which I don't believe for a minute. Her need was to be needed.

I don't know if actors know any more about their characters than we do. The only ones who know for sure are the writers, if that.

As an example, I remember once hearing David Duchovny say in an interview that he didn't have the slightest Idea about what his character thoughts or intentions were, that he was just following a script one day at a time. He even gave the impression that he didn't care about that.

 

[stardream]

I don't know if actors know any more about their characters than we do. The only ones who know for sure are the writers, if that.

As an example, I remember once hearing David Duchovny say in an interview that he didn't have the slightest Idea about what his character thoughts or intentions were, that he was just following a script one day at a time. He even gave the impression that he didn't care about that.

That's true in many cases but apparently Dawson did care. She and McNeil spent quite a bit of time talking about their characters and their motivations etc.

I don't want to upset any apple carts. If someone in their headcanon truly believes that B'Elanna once had a thing for Chakotay that's cool. I just don't think that was the case.

Maybe at one point it was a tiny idea in some writer's mind but it thankfully got squashed when it was revealed that the two actors had no chemistry and the idea of a strong independent B'Elanna secretly pinning away for Chakotay while he only had eyes for Janeway was doing a disservice to her character plus the fact that it was an overdone trope. Much better to wipe that away before it even became a thing and restart it over again with Tom/B'Elanna. Imho that was one of the things the writers did right.

 

[locutus101]

....
Maybe at one point it was a tiny idea in some writer's mind but it thankfully got squashed when it was revealed that the two actors had no chemistry and the idea of a strong independent B'Elanna secretly pinning away for Chakotay while he only had eyes for Janeway was doing a disservice to her character plus the fact that it was an overdone trope. Much better to wipe that away before it even became a thing and restart it over again with Tom/B'Elanna. Imho that was one of the things the writers did right.

Yes, that's probably close to what really happened.

 

[Sophie74656]

Until we get to "These are the Voyages" for Enterprise, in which case many people felt insulted.

I remember when the episode came out. I was active in some Trek groups and

I have to disagree here. I always got the impression that B'Elanna was deeply in love with Chakotay, ever since the time in the Maquis. But when she realized that Chakotay was more attracted to Janeway, she gave up and finally settled with Tom instead, Tom who she didn't seem to like from the beginning.

There was no indication that she was in love with him. Attracted maybe, but not in love. They had a father daughter bond more than anything.

 

[Sophie74656]

That's true in many cases but apparently Dawson did care. She and McNeil spent quite a bit of time talking about their characters and their motivations etc.

I don't want to upset any apple carts. If someone in their headcanon truly believes that B'Elanna once had a thing for Chakotay that's cool. I just don't think that was the case.

Maybe at one point it was a tiny idea in some writer's mind but it thankfully got squashed when it was revealed that the two actors had no chemistry and the idea of a strong independent B'Elanna secretly pinning away for Chakotay while he only had eyes for Janeway was doing a disservice to her character plus the fact that it was an overdone trope. Much better to wipe that away before it even became a thing and restart it over again with Tom/B'Elanna. Imho that was one of the things the writers did right.

I've read many interviews from both of them where they talked about that. They mentioned having meetings often with producers to discuss their characters and their directions.

 

[Lynx]

I think that the original plan was to show that B'Elanna was deeply in love with Chakotay, however Chakotay kept her at certain distance since he was commander of their Maquis ship.

I also think that B'Elanna was still in love with Chakotay during their first time on Voyager, therefore her hallucinations in "Persistence Of Vision" but also slowly realized that Chakotay wasn't that interested in her and was more interested in the Captain.

That's what I think that the writers had in mind all the time.

However, the Paris/Torres relationship came later. I don' think that the writers had really planned that from the start. I also guess that it became actual when all the spotlights were on Seven, Janeway and The Doctor because they had to come up with something for Tom and B'Elanna to show that they were still main characters. Before that, I didn't see much chemistry between them. B'Elanna didn't even like Tom in the beginning, calling him a pig and all that.

 

[stardream]

It's true it wasn't set up from the beginning but the Paris/Torris relationship began during the Swarm which was way before Seven joined the cast. It was just that one opening scene but it was intentionally meant to be a 'set up' kind of thing.

B'Elanna didn't like Tom in The Cloud but I think they became friends after the events in Faces.

I saw chemistry, the writers saw chemistry, but that's really a very subjective thing.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Tom fell in love with Kes in Season 2. Perhaps originally the producers wanted to pair up the two of them but did not have the courage yet to break up Kes and Neelix. And by the time they reached the decision to break them up, Tom had started wooing B'Elanna so it would have made no sense for him to return to Kes.
This gave us a whole season of cat and mouse relationship, which might have dragged on if Seven hadn't arrived. The producers probably didn't want the womanizer guy to fall in love with the latest hot babe so they quickly paired him up with B'Elanna.
Of course, most of this is speculation only ... but it's not entirely impossible.

 

[stardream]

I'm so glad they didn't do some silly Tom/Seven/B'Elanna triangle. I'm glad they didn't do any triangles. The Kes/Neelix/Tom was as close as they got and that wasn't even very close (unless you count Before and After but that's stretching it!).

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Well ... if it's a love triangle, only Tom, Chakotay and Harry would have worked for me, !
After all, Robert Beltran did say once that Tom Paris had beautiful blue eyes ...

 

[Tracy Trek]

It's true it wasn't set up from the beginning but the Paris/Torris relationship began during the Swarm which was way before Seven joined the cast. It was just that one opening scene but it was intentionally meant to be a 'set up' kind of thing.

B'Elanna didn't like Tom in The Cloud but I think they became friends after the events in Faces.

I saw chemistry, the writers saw chemistry, but that's really a very subjective thing.

Blood Fever and Displaced also happened before Seven joined the crew. I consider both of those set-ups for a future relationship for them.

Edited to add: Actually I think Blood Fever would be considered one of the major Paris/Torres episodes.

 

[Sophie74656]

Blood Fever and Displaced also happened before Seven joined the crew. I consider both of those set-ups for a future relationship for them.

Also a really cute scene in Real Life

 

[WebLurker]

Also a really cute scene in Real Life

Also:

"Dreadnaught": Paris offers a sympathetic ear when Torres expressed her regret over a past mistake that's come back to haunt her.

"Worst Case Scenario": When brainstorming about stuff to add to the Voyager mutiny holonovel, Paris suggests to Torres a love story between the pilot and chief engineer (e.g. the fictional versions of themselves).

"Before and After": During Kes's travels to her past (but the future for us in the show's "present"), Torres and Paris are shown to be romantically involved as of the first version of the Year of Hell (something that had not yet happened in the "present" of "Before and After"'s season).