What post-Nemesis Trek SHOULD be like
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
- Start date
What a silly assumption for a thread! One that was apparently not meant because someone sought a thoughtful discussion, but because someone clearly doesn't like the TNG-Trek universe and wants to rub it other people in the face by listing one-off events that were already explained.
So what did OP's arguments come down to?
Was already ignored by TNG, since there were specific plot-related reasons that was a one-off ocurence.
While the JJ-Abrams movies had their qualities, nobody liked the worldbuilding in them. This was repeatedly pointed out as one of the "universe-breaking" stupidities of the JJverse.
Also: Why the hell should Into Darkness plotholes be carried over into a post-Nemesis show???
That's an emergency transporter that otherwise funtions exactly like the standard trasnporter: only inside a system, for short distances, and one-way. So why not?
Was already ignored by all following episodes and TNG-follow up series, since there were specific plot-related reasons that that was a one-off ocurence.
Yes, using Borg-nanotechnology as medical treatment is something I would like to see in a post-NEM series!
Was already ignored by all episodes after that (except one), since there were specific plot-related reasons that this was a one-off ocurence. Also: Who wants to clone themselves? Would probably be forbidden like Augment-technology, and therefore might even be a source for some good plots...
I give you that. DS9 was consitently very shoddy and incoherent in it's world-building and level of technology. It's coincidentally also the only Trek series I didn't regularly watched, so I cannot comment on weather your arguments hold up or there were specific reasons given that those are one-off occurences.
That being said, all the sillier DS9-technologies and changes were already ignored in NEM, so it's safe to assume a post-NEM series will ignore them as well.
Since nothing you just listed would have had any sort of impact on any kind of post-NEM series:
Well yes, of course!
So what did OP's arguments come down to?
Was already ignored by TNG, since there were specific plot-related reasons that was a one-off ocurence.
While the JJ-Abrams movies had their qualities, nobody liked the worldbuilding in them. This was repeatedly pointed out as one of the "universe-breaking" stupidities of the JJverse.
Also: Why the hell should Into Darkness plotholes be carried over into a post-Nemesis show???
That's an emergency transporter that otherwise funtions exactly like the standard trasnporter: only inside a system, for short distances, and one-way. So why not?
Was already ignored by all following episodes and TNG-follow up series, since there were specific plot-related reasons that that was a one-off ocurence.
Yes, using Borg-nanotechnology as medical treatment is something I would like to see in a post-NEM series!
Was already ignored by all episodes after that (except one), since there were specific plot-related reasons that this was a one-off ocurence. Also: Who wants to clone themselves? Would probably be forbidden like Augment-technology, and therefore might even be a source for some good plots...
I give you that. DS9 was consitently very shoddy and incoherent in it's world-building and level of technology. It's coincidentally also the only Trek series I didn't regularly watched, so I cannot comment on weather your arguments hold up or there were specific reasons given that those are one-off occurences.
That being said, all the sillier DS9-technologies and changes were already ignored in NEM, so it's safe to assume a post-NEM series will ignore them as well.
Since nothing you just listed would have had any sort of impact on any kind of post-NEM series:
Well yes, of course!
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But to give a real answer:
A post-NEM series could pretty much look like what Bryan Fuller is already giving us:
A new ship. With more advanced tech. Out there in the unknown. With storyarcs and single episodes.
There, that's your world-ending-disaster-type-scenario of a new püost-NEM series. I cannot fathom the whole argument of "the tech would be sooo advanced". Well guess what: The tech is only advanced compared to other Trek technologies. ALL of which are too-advanced and magical compared to our current tech.
If today someone would invent "beaming" for a television series, people would complain "it's too advanced for Star Trek, nobody can tell any stories when you can basically beam anywhere".
But to be serious: Sailing ships in 500 B.C. looked pretty much like sailing ships 500 A.C. Once we had invented "cannons", sailing ships in 1500 (that still followed the same design principles!) almost looked like sailing ships in 1700 or 1800 A.C, just a bit bigger and more advanced.
If you take a modern day aircraft carrier and set it side-by-side with a WW2-era aircraft carrier, they would look very similar, only on closer inspection you would recognize the progression of technologies. But It's still working by the basically same fundamental technologies, and therefore has a lot of the same basic design principles. And I'm going out on a limb and make a prediction here: an aircraft carrier in the year 2100 A.C will still look pretty similar to those.
So what do I want from a post-NEM series? A bit of an advancement in technology. Stay with the quantum torpedoes instead of photon torpedoes. Have everything a bit smoother, let the tricorder and communicator be the same device. Let even the biggest starships be capable of landing or "hovering". Have some sort of "magical" tech, where people built a whole tent out of a small suitcase. Let people carry a hand-sized hologram emmiter around, with which they can produce 3d-holograms anywhere they go (Star Trek holograms already work on a very different principle than what we currently foolishly called "holograms" after Trek). Let the starships travel a bit faster. Maybe have the whole galaxy in reach within only a few years (the galaxy is still BIG and WIDE), and let the exploring be about filling the large gaps in the world. Let the setting be more like the Horatio Hornblower novels where it's about "the white parts of maps getting smaller and smaller". Let everything look a it more advanced.
But essentially: be Trek. Focus on the exploring, the out-there. The quality and excitement of what's "out there" is determined by the imagination of the writers, not by the century a fictional science fiction series is set in. And get the hell away with all this "downfall of the Federation"-crap that's antithetical to the whole spirit of GR's creation and self-referential to the point where viewers must already be familiar with the details of the Federation, even though it always only played a small background role to the real action of the setting of the show: the starship (or space station) said show is set on.
A post-NEM series could pretty much look like what Bryan Fuller is already giving us:
A new ship. With more advanced tech. Out there in the unknown. With storyarcs and single episodes.
There, that's your world-ending-disaster-type-scenario of a new püost-NEM series. I cannot fathom the whole argument of "the tech would be sooo advanced". Well guess what: The tech is only advanced compared to other Trek technologies. ALL of which are too-advanced and magical compared to our current tech.
If today someone would invent "beaming" for a television series, people would complain "it's too advanced for Star Trek, nobody can tell any stories when you can basically beam anywhere".
But to be serious: Sailing ships in 500 B.C. looked pretty much like sailing ships 500 A.C. Once we had invented "cannons", sailing ships in 1500 (that still followed the same design principles!) almost looked like sailing ships in 1700 or 1800 A.C, just a bit bigger and more advanced.
If you take a modern day aircraft carrier and set it side-by-side with a WW2-era aircraft carrier, they would look very similar, only on closer inspection you would recognize the progression of technologies. But It's still working by the basically same fundamental technologies, and therefore has a lot of the same basic design principles. And I'm going out on a limb and make a prediction here: an aircraft carrier in the year 2100 A.C will still look pretty similar to those.
So what do I want from a post-NEM series? A bit of an advancement in technology. Stay with the quantum torpedoes instead of photon torpedoes. Have everything a bit smoother, let the tricorder and communicator be the same device. Let even the biggest starships be capable of landing or "hovering". Have some sort of "magical" tech, where people built a whole tent out of a small suitcase. Let people carry a hand-sized hologram emmiter around, with which they can produce 3d-holograms anywhere they go (Star Trek holograms already work on a very different principle than what we currently foolishly called "holograms" after Trek). Let the starships travel a bit faster. Maybe have the whole galaxy in reach within only a few years (the galaxy is still BIG and WIDE), and let the exploring be about filling the large gaps in the world. Let the setting be more like the Horatio Hornblower novels where it's about "the white parts of maps getting smaller and smaller". Let everything look a it more advanced.
But essentially: be Trek. Focus on the exploring, the out-there. The quality and excitement of what's "out there" is determined by the imagination of the writers, not by the century a fictional science fiction series is set in. And get the hell away with all this "downfall of the Federation"-crap that's antithetical to the whole spirit of GR's creation and self-referential to the point where viewers must already be familiar with the details of the Federation, even though it always only played a small background role to the real action of the setting of the show: the starship (or space station) said show is set on.
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Basically, if we want a post-Nemesis Trek series, you have to ask yourself one thing: Was the level of technology displayed in Nemesis too advanced, or was it okay?
Nemesis was a really weak movie. But the problem was the writing and the plot itself, not the setting of the Enterprise-E. In fact I wouldn't have minded if we had gotten a whole new Trek series set on a Souvereign class- or a comparable starship at the time... And that's what I expect from a post-NEM series: Be a little bit more advanced than Nemesis. Doesn't look so impossible now, right?
Nemesis was a really weak movie. But the problem was the writing and the plot itself, not the setting of the Enterprise-E. In fact I wouldn't have minded if we had gotten a whole new Trek series set on a Souvereign class- or a comparable starship at the time... And that's what I expect from a post-NEM series: Be a little bit more advanced than Nemesis. Doesn't look so impossible now, right?
Because the formula for transwarp beaming came from Spock Prime, who is from the post-Nemesis era. And he got it from Scotty Prime, also in the post-Nemesis era, or at least sometime post-Relics. Or was it their little secret? Hmm:
Scotty: Here you go. You set up your red matter bomb, and then use this to beam yourself anywhere in the quadrant.
Spock: Thank you, Mr. Scott. Provided that Romulan miner doesn't show up to distract me, I shall be beaming back here when I'm done.
Scotty: Mr. Spock, don't you think we should share this breakthrough with Starfleet. Instantaneous beaming anywhere in the galaxy could have its advantages.
Spock: Mr. Scott, how much interaction have you had with Starfleet of this era?
Scotty: Just that time I was on the Enterprise with the Frenchman commanding, with the android and Klingon officers.
Spock: Let me tell you, you give something like transwarp beaming to contemporary Starfleet they'll complain about it robbing them of the human condition and toss it in a vault along with all the other technological breakthroughs of the past fifty years.
No, it's from someone who gets annoyed at Trek's constant use of game-changing inventions which are then immediately forgotten. I think it's a valid criticism, and genuinely do believe that a Star Trek taking these progressions to their logical conclusions and exploring the massive changes they result in would make for a fascinating series (albeit one very unlike the usual Trek of exploring alien words in a starship)
As Wormhole pointed out, it's a Prime Universe invention in ST'09 carried over to Into Darkness. Very similar long-range beaming was seen in Next Gen's "Bloodlines", and DS9's Dominion used it fairly routinely. It's not a plothole to have this technology, it's established Trek lore going back to several aliens-of-the-week in TOS.
But as established in "Bloodlines" and ST'09, it's a minor software patch that upgrades a regular short-range transporter to one with a multiple light-year range (and in DS9, waving a gizmo over the transporter console modifies it to inter-dimensional beaming also)
Which leaves us with a continuation of a continuity where much of it never happened because unless we ignore the consequences our show becomes something very different.
Well, if you want to complain about "game-changing technologies" that get ignored after their introduction:
No problem. Go ahead. There's some true criticism deep in there.
But it has NOTHING to do with a post-Nemesis setting or would need to be adressed in any kind of future Trek iteration. Both Enterprise and TOS had their fair share of "forgotten" technologies as well already. This is a problem that is simply not always avoilable when you're creating 800+ hours of television on a weekly basis.
Oh, and still: You still haven't answered why plot holes that are specific to ST09 or Into Darkness should be carried over to the prime universe. Especially since those are the reasons they got critizized in their worldbuilding so much.
As ist stands, pretty much all of the JJverse movies is going to be ignored in prime Trek in long-term. Red matter, the Narada and transwarp beaming were all invented for the JJmovies, as were for example windshields instead of viewing screens and breweries for engines, as well as massively oversized starships and pretty much instant warp travel. All those stupid little alterations were what essentially broke the continuity of the JJverse movies, and they squarely only ever belonged into them. As far as the prime universe goes, neither red matter nor a magical transwarp beaming formula ever existed. Those are stupid ideas of the JJverse movies, that will forever stay in the JJverse movies.
No problem. Go ahead. There's some true criticism deep in there.
But it has NOTHING to do with a post-Nemesis setting or would need to be adressed in any kind of future Trek iteration. Both Enterprise and TOS had their fair share of "forgotten" technologies as well already. This is a problem that is simply not always avoilable when you're creating 800+ hours of television on a weekly basis.
Oh, and still: You still haven't answered why plot holes that are specific to ST09 or Into Darkness should be carried over to the prime universe. Especially since those are the reasons they got critizized in their worldbuilding so much.
As ist stands, pretty much all of the JJverse movies is going to be ignored in prime Trek in long-term. Red matter, the Narada and transwarp beaming were all invented for the JJmovies, as were for example windshields instead of viewing screens and breweries for engines, as well as massively oversized starships and pretty much instant warp travel. All those stupid little alterations were what essentially broke the continuity of the JJverse movies, and they squarely only ever belonged into them. As far as the prime universe goes, neither red matter nor a magical transwarp beaming formula ever existed. Those are stupid ideas of the JJverse movies, that will forever stay in the JJverse movies.
If Star Trek is truly owned by two different companies, then it would make sense. For all we know, Paramount had to hash out using Enterprise references and other TV series references in their movies.
But, I'm not convinced Discovery will be Prime Trek in anything but name. They are already redesigning the look of the technology and some aliens. How long before they begin changing continuity to tell their story?
Well someone mentions 'subspace beaming' in "Bloodlines", which is essentially the same thing--or two buzzwords for the same concept. So it already existed. Geordi mentions that there were power insufficiency issues.
My take on it is it was a concept Scotty came up with sometime in his career but could never make it work. Then, in his post-Jenolen retirement, he tinkers away at it with the new technology available to him. And, in the 20 years between season 6-7 and the Hobus star blowing up, he comes up with a new formula. Spock finds out about it--I think it's a nice thought that he gets back in touch with Scotty, maybe even to consult on the Jellyfish construction. None the less, this has always been the sort of thing over which the two shared a common bond.
Anyhoo, Spock takes the new formula back with him. KTScotty jerry-riggs something up, but he has to use up ever last bit of power the base can muster for a one-time shot. Then Khan takes the technology, and his superbrain designs some kind of uber power device for it. But it gets destroyed in the attack on HQ. And, since he never left any plans, the technology gets lost.
Though I suspect KTScotty would certainly try to reverse engineer it.
Section 31 confiscated it from Kelvin-Scotty when they got back to Earth.
They probably kept all materials and data on-sight at the Kelvin archive. Khan stole the 'only functioning prototype' and it burned out in the beaming.
His detonation of the Archive would have destroyed pretty much everything S31 had. Whoever Marcus' next in line was would have raided the Jupiter shipyard and dredged the archive remains to make sure everything left was sealed off the same as Khan.
They probably kept all materials and data on-sight at the Kelvin archive. Khan stole the 'only functioning prototype' and it burned out in the beaming.
His detonation of the Archive would have destroyed pretty much everything S31 had. Whoever Marcus' next in line was would have raided the Jupiter shipyard and dredged the archive remains to make sure everything left was sealed off the same as Khan.
I can't believe they wouldn't have backups scattered throughout the Federation.
Which the next head of S31 would suddenly have to hide for some time, as the Federation would be out for blood after the Vengeance incident.
Depends who all was involved. I can't believe that other high ranking Federation officials weren't involved. All that funding had to come from somewhere.
In order of preference:
1. Anything Bryan Fuller wants to do. It appears that's pre-TOS, so now I'm super excited about pre-TOS.
2. 31st century "fall of the Roman Empire" type story, retaining the optimism of prior Star Trek shows with the crew of an old, ragged ship boldly going to make the Federation great again and bringing hope back to a hopeless galaxy.
3. Full reboot. No time spent explaining a nonsensical time split, no appealing to nostalgia, no rehashing, just a whole new universe and a whole new sandbox to play with.
4. 25th/26th century post-NEM show going nowhere.
1. Anything Bryan Fuller wants to do. It appears that's pre-TOS, so now I'm super excited about pre-TOS.
2. 31st century "fall of the Roman Empire" type story, retaining the optimism of prior Star Trek shows with the crew of an old, ragged ship boldly going to make the Federation great again and bringing hope back to a hopeless galaxy.
3. Full reboot. No time spent explaining a nonsensical time split, no appealing to nostalgia, no rehashing, just a whole new universe and a whole new sandbox to play with.
4. 25th/26th century post-NEM show going nowhere.
I usually find your (longer) comments pretty insightful, but one thing that always baffles me: You seem to equate prime universe with TNG-era aesthetic.
Remember: Prime Trek was 800+ hours, it includes both TOS, TNG, the TOS movies, ENT and pretty much else. Prime Trek was pretty much "redesigning the look of the technology and some aliens" in every. single. iteration. there was.
So Discovery will not be "Prime Trek in anything but name". It will fit perfectly in how prime Trek operates: broad stroakes.
Holy shit! Hell no!
Why are you assuming a post-NEM show would be going nowhere, wheras a prequel in canon is somehow allowed to go anywhere?
Of course Fuller seems to have a distict idea for his show, and it's his show, so I'm going to look at what he has to offer.
It still doesn't change my view that longterm the franchise has to be bold and go into the future again, if it wants to survive and not live on an endless loop of nostalgia-fueled self-references and the never-ending desires to capture TOS again (which it tried in every single one of the last three, soon four iterations, and which it always has failed to fully accomplish).
You can't make a show about an idyllic future because you need things to interest people.
Being ten years before the original series and being concurrent with "The Cage", those changes are going to stick out like a sore thumb for people that care about this stuff all fitting together. I do equate Prime timeline with TNG/24th century, as 500 of the 700+ plus hours of Star Trek take place there. Berman Trek equates to more than 600 of those 700 hours.
I see the original Star Trek as its own thing. When one watches and compares and contrasts the various works, it becomes clear the original really doesn't fit in. It was an action-adventure series, that didn't seem to take itself too seriously. It had a sense of fun that was never replicated in the later shows. It had a sense of the universe being this weird and wonderful place where anything could happen. The later shows were more just straight 1980's drama. It doesn't mean the Berman series didn't hit it out of the park on occasion, but I found them far less memorable.
Because you're looking at it on the surface. You can easily, EASILY, go do a million different things in the TOS-era.I usually find your (longer) comments pretty insightful, but one thing that always baffles me: You seem to equate prime universe with TNG-era aesthetic.
Remember: Prime Trek was 800+ hours, it includes both TOS, TNG, the TOS movies, ENT and pretty much else. Prime Trek was pretty much "redesigning the look of the technology and some aliens" in every. single. iteration. there was.
So Discovery will not be "Prime Trek in anything but name". It will fit perfectly in how prime Trek operates: broad stroakes.
Holy shit! Hell no!
Why are you assuming a post-NEM show would be going nowhere, wheras a prequel in canon is somehow allowed to go anywhere?
Of course Fuller seems to have a distict idea for his show, and it's his show, so I'm going to look at what he has to offer.
It still doesn't change my view that longterm the franchise has to be bold and go into the future again, if it wants to survive and not live on an endless loop of nostalgia-fueled self-references and the never-ending desires to capture TOS again (which it tried in every single one of the last three, soon four iterations, and which it always has failed to fully accomplish).
And in the words of Rick Berman/Brannon Braga themselves (when originally asked to do a 26th century show after VOY), "What are we gonna do…warp 14? Have even tighter spandex?"
That's not one, not two, but three different writers and producers from different backgrounds thinking there's not much else to do after VOY. I think they're right.
I think you could go many places, but Trek does have a long running issue of doing something and then acting like it was never done. You know, long range transportation, transporter cloning and all kinds of other "plot" based tech that worked once and then is forgotten about, forever.
One thing they could do is slipstream drive. Its something neat that came up in the books, that could be done. However, I would like to get a bit bake to basics, something based around the fallout of the Romulan empire would be cool.
One thing they could do is slipstream drive. Its something neat that came up in the books, that could be done. However, I would like to get a bit bake to basics, something based around the fallout of the Romulan empire would be cool.
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