"Genes vision". ....how I hate that phrase.
He never had a vision except money and sex.
Excessive Criticism of "STAR TREK VOYAGER"
- Thread starter LJones41
- Start date
"Genes vision". ....how I hate that phrase.
He never had a vision except money and sex.
He behaved like an idiot. The first thing to do would have been to check on Voyager, for all we know they were closer to home without him than with him. Just because you're in an alternate reality (assuming that even makes sense.
) doesn't mean that things are worse off. It's neurotic of him to automatically assume the latter without anything to back it up. Second HIS life was much better, why would he want to go back to one where he most likely will never see the earth ever again, and where he could be dead next year or sooner.Just as I said there is nothing altruistic in Harry's decision to screw up his new life. It's just plainly neurotic.
He behaved like an idiot. The first thing to do would have been to check on Voyager, for all we know they were closer to home without him than with him. Just because you're in an alternate reality (assuming that even makes sense.
Just as I said there is nothing altruistic in Harry's decision to screw up his new life. It's just plainly neurotic.
What I would have liked to have seen in that episode would have been more of a pull for Harry to remain....more of a connection with Libby and his job and perhaps thinking he could help pull that version of Tom out of his downward spiral but perhaps guilt at his friend being on Voyager instead of him makes him feel that he SHOULD go back...perhaps even showing flashbacks of that friend so the audience feels a connection to him. It could be his friend might have been killed when the ship was originally pulled back. There should be more conflict between wanting to stay but needing to go.
He behaved like an idiot. The first thing to do would have been to check on Voyager, for all we know they were closer to home without him than with him. Just because you're in an alternate reality (assuming that even makes sense.
Just as I said there is nothing altruistic in Harry's decision to screw up his new life. It's just plainly neurotic.
Let me modify my statement- emotionally, he handled it fine. I don't necessarily agree with his choices, I don't remember thinking he made the right ones when I watched it. But he wasn't totally freaking out like I would have.
The concept of Voyager was great, but they let me and a lot of other Trek fans down with poor execution. The human characters were mostly bland and unengaging, Janeway was inconsistently written and the execs were too burned by DS9 to dare to go where no Trek had gone before. Just IMHO of course, YMMV.
I've never been in that situation of course but I have once or twice found myself in weird situations, because friends of mine had played a practical joke on me and I didn't freak out, what I did was pretend that things were normal while I was thinking things through. People still thought that funny though mostly because of my indecision. That's what practical jokes are for.
There was no need to become a criminal like Harry did very fast. I mean the reasonable thing to do is to act normal so in the case you are delusional people don't put you in jail or in a madhouse.
I think I need to rewatch the episode =/
They're in a pathetic scout ship a kick in the shins would blow up, their weapons are near-useless, they're slower and weaker than everyone else, everyone there wants to kill them, they can't ever flesh out the surrounding area or make allies, they can't get involved in anything cool like stopping a war or an invasion or preventing a catastrophe, they can never ever replenish any resources whatsoever which means they're going to all be dead in a while anyways.
That's what VOY's premise would've been if they held to it. That's what VOY's premise leads to.
It's a matter of incompetence if it's a very basic resource that's not hard to make/harness.
The ENT-D was a lot bigger than VOY, it made sense there we couldn't see everyone.
And if VOY was an automated ship and the crew were only 9 people, you think the audience would've been happy with that? Given how hyper-critical VOY's audience was, they'd just complain the writers wussed out by making the ship not need a big crew in the first place!
The premise was that they'd spend the whole series RUNNING AWAY from the unknown. That's the opposite of Gene's vision.
In DS9, Odo and Kira were in a tense relationship with Sisko for the first season. After that, they became his trusted allies and friends with very little conflict between them after that. Did anyone complain? No.
With Voyager, apparently the conflict could never end until the series finale (and maybe not even then).
Voyager wasn't a bad series, but it never 'grabbed me and wouldn't let go' the way its predecessors did. I simply thought the series was rather pedestrian; perhaps by that time, I was beginning to get a bit "Treked out' after so many episodes of TNG and DS9--there certainly can be too much of a good thing.
Compared with its contemporary, DS9, the characters were less interesting and their interactions less compelling to me. In fairness, there are some Voyager episodes I rate among the best of any Star Trek, but compared with all the other series (besides Enterprise), there seemed to be considerably fewer of them.
Compared with its contemporary, DS9, the characters were less interesting and their interactions less compelling to me. In fairness, there are some Voyager episodes I rate among the best of any Star Trek, but compared with all the other series (besides Enterprise), there seemed to be considerably fewer of them.
No one has argued that. But, some conflict, that occasionally popped up ("Learning Curve." for example) would have been interesting through the first season. Conflict can add to the drama, but, for the most part, the crew was one big happy family.
They just played it too safe with the relationships and lacked the chemistry that made TNG or DS9 ro enjoyable, in my opinion.
Isn't the reverse of that VOY is a small ship so it's more likely we would see the same recurring faces? See a new face on a larger ship like the Ent-D well it's a big ship, they had some crew transfers. See a new face on VOY (that couldn't get new crew) that's fufilling a role that could have been done by someone who had previously appeared and it's why didn't they use so and so. Now of course some of that is down to considerations such as actor availability.
Surely the line about not having the ability to repalce torpedeos hints that it's not a basic resource that is easy to make/harness, or that VOY lacked the ability to build them. But the point of the line was to make them something they had to be careful about using, the writers took the lazy route in addressing the issue, instead of spending a few seconds at the end of a Log entry saying something like "Engineering reports they have found away to replenish our photon torpedeos." they simply ignored it and hoped the audiance wouldn't call them out on it. The former addressing the issue treats the viewer with respect whilst the later basically ignoring the issue they themselves created doesn't.
There is something called show don't tell in fiction , whilst it's not always as simple as that as sometimes it's better to show it, sometimes better to tell it. But when you neither show nor tell aren't you doing a disservice? Sure we saw them build the Delta flyer in VOY but where did this ability to build shuttles come from as a shuttle is far more complex that something we are told they can not replace a torpedeo. i.e. it comes back to my earlier point about telling the audiance that you have overcome a problem.
But they could have done more to show things like damage repair with a progression of dimisnishing damage over the course of a few episodes. Instead of it looking virtually brand new every episode. We as viewers all bring our expectations to a show any show, when those aren't met we can start to see what we percieve as flaws in a show rightly or wrongly.
This is a part of an interview that Ron Moor did :
"What is the difference really between Voyager and the rest of the fleet? When that ship comes home, it will blend right in. You won’t even know the difference. They haven’t personalized the ship in any way. It’s still the same kind of bare metal, military look that it had at the beginning. If you were trapped on that ship and making your way home, for years on end, wouldn’t you put something up on the walls? Would you put a plant or two somewhere in a corridor? Wouldn’t you try to make it a little more livable? That is the challenge that I think they have really dropped. They just won’t deal with the reality of the situation that ship is in.
http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm
And I can't help but agree with him, they never really sold the premise that these people might never see home again.
Season 2 had its share of interpersonal conflict. Some of it manufactured, specifically Tom's insubordination over several eps, a confusing attitude that B'Elanna called him on before the big reveal, and some of it real... specifically how upset Maquis Hogan was over the death of yet another friend which led him to publically challenge his Federation Captain's refusal to bargain with the Kazon, not to mention Seska's spy in the midst of the Engineering department.
Of course there's also the drama when too many hormones have too few outlets to chase, yes... I'm looking at you Tom and Neelix and the ethical drama of the episode I refuse to name for fear a firestorm will erupt... but it comes right after The Thaw and right before Resolutions.
Of course there's also the drama when too many hormones have too few outlets to chase, yes... I'm looking at you Tom and Neelix and the ethical drama of the episode I refuse to name for fear a firestorm will erupt... but it comes right after The Thaw and right before Resolutions.
Yes, which means once they introduce someone new then they have to keep thinking of reasons NOT to show that character when they want to focus on someone else. Since the ship isn't very big, they can't just say "They're on another deck". Once these new characters are there, the writers are stuck with them whether they want to include them or not.
It's a no-win scenario, either write stories about the main cast and get complaints they aren't enough recurring characters or introduce recurring characters and get complaints that thanks to these recurring characters the main cast aren't getting enough screentime.
You just can't win.
Uh-huh, and what are the odds that if they DID that and had someone say "We found out how to make more torpedoes, because it's really not that hard" then the complaint merely becomes "They found a way to make new torpedoes! What a cop-out!"?
One Strike, you're out. And there are no second chances.
Even the beloved DS9 did this, you know. In "To The Death" one of the pylons is blown clean off but by the end of the episode the station is spick and span.
And no, don't say "Well they were in Federation space".
Ron Moore is a whiner who used just as many cheats and cop-outs as he accuses Voyager of doing. He has no right to judge or condemn anyone else and allow himself to escape scrutinizing.
Leave it to him, absolutely everything in Voyager would be because Q was doing stuff.
I don't remember hearing many complaints that the main cast of DSN wasn't getting enough screen time. Yet they managaed not only to develop their main cast but a fair few secondaries
Garak
Dukat
Gowron
Martok
Damar
Winn
Bareil
Weyon
Nog
Rom
Eddington
Ziyal
Sure you could say some of them filled the villian role but that isn't the point. So yes VOY could had developed a strong core of secondary characters with minimal detriment to the regulars. But as I said earlier they didn't need to use the character if they didn't have to, but when they needed to instead of creating a new character they could have used an existing character to fufil the role guest star. Sure VOY did this a few times.
Which is worse from a stroytelling point writing yourself out of a corner you wrote yourself into or ignoring the corner you wrote yourself into as if it had never occured. Whilst both may not be ideal the former at least treats your audiance with some degree of intelligence whilst the later does not.
Garak
Dukat
Gowron
Martok
Damar
Winn
Bareil
Weyon
Nog
Rom
Eddington
Ziyal
Sure you could say some of them filled the villian role but that isn't the point. So yes VOY could had developed a strong core of secondary characters with minimal detriment to the regulars. But as I said earlier they didn't need to use the character if they didn't have to, but when they needed to instead of creating a new character they could have used an existing character to fufil the role guest star. Sure VOY did this a few times.
Which is worse from a stroytelling point writing yourself out of a corner you wrote yourself into or ignoring the corner you wrote yourself into as if it had never occured. Whilst both may not be ideal the former at least treats your audiance with some degree of intelligence whilst the later does not.
How would he have checked on Voyager from the Alpha Quadrant?He behaved like an idiot. The first thing to do would have been to check on Voyager, for all we know they were closer to home without him than with him. Just because you're in an alternate reality (assuming that even makes sense.
Just as I said there is nothing altruistic in Harry's decision to screw up his new life. It's just plainly neurotic.
The point being that without a clear indication about Voyager's state the deciding factor should have been how his girlfriend and his parents felt. He didn't even check on his mom and dad and that clearly shows that there is something wrong with him. Look how quickly he became a criminal, had he failed he could have spent the rest of his life paying for it.
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DS9 got away with it by having the rest of the Trekverse to play with and then their Galactic War storyline, stuff VOY couldn't do thanks to the premise.
But you still get criticized no matter what, there's nothing that pleases the audience even remotely.
It's like Living Witness, people can say what they want NOW but when it aired the number one thing pointed out was the whole "the EMH can't ever be backed up!". Nothing else mattered to the audience but that one petty little thing, not the acting or the story or message. All the episode got for its troubles was "The EMH can't ever be backed up!"
Meanwhile DS9 gives us the Female Quark episode and no one blinks an eye and finds it entertaining.
Many Voyager episodes don't make any sense. Take innocence for example. It's completely inane. I mean they are born old and get younger!!! How the hell does that work from a practical point of view? Do they grow in coffins as soon as you built them and walk off as soon as they are done?
