Excessive Criticism of "STAR TREK VOYAGER"

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Generally I have thought of VOY as my least favourite Trek. As has been mentioned, it's TNG-lite, not taking advantage of its premise, a very inconsistent characterization of Janeway (or as some has called her - Insaneway ), bland characters for the most part, Neelix, etc.

But then when I watch TNG again, even in glorious hi-def on blu-ray, I find a lot of similar faults on that show. So who knows, once I get through my rewatch of the respective shows, I will find that once I tally them up, I might put VOY before TNG.

BTW, my preferred Treks are TOS, ENT and DS9 in that order.

 

[jgalley]

Personally I don't really care much for Voyager. I can't bring myself to "hate" it though. Most of the reasons why have been mentioned. I love Kate Mulgrew (sp?) but didn't like Janeway much at all. She certainly seemed Bipolar so it'd be interesting to see if that "rumor" brought up earlier in the post is accurate or not.

Plus, imo, none of the characters were all that interesting. Though I really can't say I disliked any one particular character definitively. Each character had moments they shined. Kim was probably my least favorite but even he had some likeable moments for his character.

Plus again the premise was dropped it seemed. Resource problems one episode then seemingly unlimited the next. Things like Replicator "Rations" were pontless as nothing was ever really done with it.

I, personally, think Voyager would have been more interesting if instead of them being stranded in the DQ that the ship had some experimental/new drive and the show was more about them actually exploring the DQ instead of <insert contrived possibility of getting home early here> every now and then. And it would have opened up more with the DQ and it's inhabitants. Though, sadly, other than the Borg (which were way overused and became a non-threat almost it seems) none of the races we ran into were interesting at all. Kazon were like smarter Pakleds, Hirogen were just a rehash of the Jem'Hadar, etc.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

For the past two decades, I have never encountered so much criticism of one particular Star Trek show than I have for STAR TREK VOYAGER.

Ironically, I used to buy it. Or accept it. One of the reasons I had ignored STAR TREK VOYAGER for so many years, because I had assumed that those fans who had deemed it inferior to the other shows in the franchise were right...

I preface these next remarks with the universal caveat... YMMV

I never hated Voyager. Never merely tolerated it. Never felt the need to apologize for it.

I loved TOS.

I tolerated season 1 of TNG until I really fell for it in season 2.

I tried to get into DS9 but failed. I finally caught onto it when Voyager started and Worf joined the show. (I taped DS9 and Voy since they both aired here at 11 pm - 1 am and watched both shows.)

I fell in love with Voyager from the pilot and never wavered.

I don't really understand the criticism of Janeway being inconsistently written, since Janeway as a Captain had to constantly adapt to ever changing circumstances. Why is it okay to deny a replicator here, but exchange high grade weapons there? Its a challenge, its real, and maybe I bend the rules today and maybe I break them tomorrow, but either way I will try to find a way for my ship and crew to survive. And she knew, deep down, that survival meant with their souls intact. They couldn't descend to the level of the beast just because they needed to "survive".

I shake my head at the complaint the two crews weren't at each other's throats for longer.

These two crews had to learn to live with, rely on one another or they were TOAST! As it was, you still saw essences of their separateness through the first two seasons until Resolutions at the end of season 2.

KIM: B'Elanna, I've been talking with some of the Starfleet crew. They're not happy about what happened. I was wondering, how are the Maquis taking it?
TORRES: How do you think they're taking it? This isn't a Starfleet issue, Harry. It's affecting everyone.

In fact, now that I think of it, the name of that romantic episode for J/C shippers probably had absolutely nothing to do with J or with C. Rather, it had everything to do with the resolution these two crews made to not only work together to fight Tuvok and the Vidians, but to truly become one crew in the process.

Messhall:

HOGAN: Excuse me. Ensign Kim, could we?
KIM: Sure. Have a seat.
SWINN: We just wanted you to know we heard what happened on the Bridge.
HOGAN: And we think you're absolutely right. We've got to contact the Vidiians.
SWINN: It's a risk, but it's worth it.
KIM: That's what I think, but Captain Tuvok's made his decision. Two ensigns and a crewman won't change his mind.
HOGAN: There are a lot more who agree with us.
SWINN: A lot.
KIM: Really.
HOGAN: Everyone we talk to can't believe that Tuvok won't give this a try.
KIM: Come on.
(They go to Torres' table.)
KIM: Did you hear what happened this morning?
TORRES: Sure did.
KIM: Three weeks ago, you said if I had an idea about what to do, you'd listen.
TORRES: I'm listening.
NEELIX: Is there something going on that I should know about?
KIM: Have a seat, Neelix. We might have come up with the biggest morale booster you could possibly imagine.

Janeway and her people did things other ships and shows only dreamed of. Picard was sent to the end of the universe in season 1, he was sent to Borg space in season 2 but each time he was sent back home, saved by his own wits and quite a lot of help from other beings.

Janeway and her people were not so lucky. They were tossed to the far side of the Delta quadrant with no guardian angel to send them home.

Kirk blew up the Enterprise only after he vacated it. Picard threatened to blow up his Enterprise while still on it. Janeway not only planned to blow up Voyager while she was on it (Dreadnought) she ACTUALLY DID IT (Deadlocked)

Did they EVER have to scrounge for supplies while "on the road"? Sure they did. In fact they were doing just that in season 1's Phage (dilithium),
The Cloud (Omicron paricles = antimatter reserve),
Emmantions (A stable transuranic element= BELANNA "...what we could make with this stuff? Probe casings that could go into the core of a sun, ultra-thin reactor shielding..."),
State of Flux ( Food stuffs = NEELIX: This is the reason I brought you here, Commander. There's no better source of vitamins and minerals in the quadrant than in this, this ugly little root. CHAKOTAY: I'd find the second best source acceptable if it tasted better. )
Heroes and Demons ( JANEWAY: If this photonic matter works as well as I think, it could boost the efficiency of our power converters fifteen percent.)
Cathexis: (TUVOK: We had completed our trade mission with the Ilidarians...)
Faces: (JANEWAY: By now, they should have concluded their inspection of the magnesite formations on the third planet. )

I count at least 7 out of the 1st 15 eps of the series (season 1) devoted in some way to expanding their resources, so I think I can be forgiven for rolling my eyes at the complaint that Voy didn't address their supply needs through the years. Heck, the whole idea of the messhall and the hydroponics bay was an attempt to create their own foodstuffs and stretch their energy resources (replicator rations).

I loved Janeway from the get go and quickly fell for B'Elanna, Paris, Tuvok and Kes. The EMH had to grow on me, as did Chakotay. Neelix didn't become real to me until he stopped chasing after Kes, and so when she finally was written off the show, it was possible for his character to progress.

In fact, its Kes' character that is the rare time I agree with Voy haters complaint of wasted potential. Her potential was never realized. But as much as I loved the idea of Kes, I really loved the "reality" that was "Seven of Nine".

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[fireproof78]

I was disappointed by Voyager. It could've been great, showing our heroes holding onto their beliefs and principles against harrowing odds as they struggled to survive, in the face of unknown dangers on their own, a situation no one would blame them for cutting corners, especially with terrorists comprising a chunk of the crew. Their voyage across the DQ just came across as too easy to me, without much in the way of serious obstacles or challenges--though the episodic format was a big part of that problem, it's definitely a show where a continuing narrative would've worked better.

Hate is a strong word--definitely not for applying to Voyager (or even Enterprise for that matter, though that's another problem altogether).

This for me is the crux of my emotions. It isn't hate, because that requires an emotional investment that was never really present. I read everything I could on VOY leading up to its release, and recorded the pilot on VHS.

It just didn't grab me, nor does it hold my attention. I can occasionally turn an episode on (thank you, Netflix) and enjoy it, but they are few and far between. The characters just were not that engaging in a way that I connected with.

No doubt, that varies for many people. But, for me, characters are the core of show's enjoyment for me. If I can't connect with a character or cast of characters, then it becomes a little bit more difficult to stay invested.

As for the "reset button" it only bothered me when they made a big deal out of things, like the shuttles or the photon torpedoes. Two lines could have fixed that, but instead, it's a non issue, ignore because of story convenience.

I guess it disappoints because it felt so caviler in how it treated consequence. So, it was hard for me to take it seriously.

 

[MulgrewFanatic]

No kidding... Everything you said, the same for me.

Well, it's all opinion, right?
But Voyager was my introduction to Trek and so it has a special place in my heart. So special in fact that right now I am going through a very painful divorce and part of what has helped durring my bouts of depression and anger has been watching Voyager.

So what I loved about it more than any other series was the characters. I like TNG but found the characters one dimentional and boring. They are all perfect people always doing the "right" thing.

Voyager is by far my favorite series but I can say that the first season is quite bad, as is the second season. I think it wasn't until Kes left that the show really became great (nothing against her, just a point in the show)

 

[Catarina]

Hmm
even the bipolar [theory] seems inconsistent. IMO they [writing team;producers] were more focused on the next idea than looking back on what was done. personally, if i had their power I'd be picky and look back to keep consistency.

 

[2takesfrakes]

As a sort of 'criticism' of audiences, why can't they - we - just go with what they show onscreen? Why not simply accept that it's a show and have an "anything goes" type of attitude and just enjoy it for what it is?

 

[jgalley]

As a sort of 'criticism' of audiences, why can't they - we - just go with what they show onscreen? Why not simply accept that it's a show and have an "anything goes" type of attitude and just enjoy it for what it is?

Because then it wouldn't be Star Trek. Star Trek is supposed to show humanity "grown up" (among many other things) but that alone doesn't allow for one to take an "anything goes" attitude towards a Star Trek show.

 

[Sophie74656]

No offenc to anyone but I think it's easy to say s

As a sort of 'criticism' of audiences, why can't they - we - just go with what they show onscreen? Why not simply accept that it's a show and have an "anything goes" type of attitude and just enjoy it for what it is?

I do agree with this more or less. One thing I really love about Trek is that a lot of the science is somewhat realistic and consistent. It has even helped a lot of our own real life technology to progress. But I understand that it's still just a tv show and things will happen, be made up or ignored, or changed if the plot calls for it. And that's fine with me if we get a good episode out of it. I'm not watching this show to learn science or physics. I'm watching it to be entertained and to forget my own woes for 40 minutes.

 

[stardream]

Because then it wouldn't be Star Trek. Star Trek is supposed to show humanity "grown up" (among many other things) but that alone doesn't allow for one to take an "anything goes" attitude towards a Star Trek show.

The attitude of the viewer determines whether or not it is Star Trek? I didn't know we had that much power.

 

[jgalley]

The attitude of the viewer determines whether or not it is Star Trek? I didn't know we had that much power.

Twist what I said anyway you want but, no the content of the show determines that. Hence the hate for the ones that break it or go against what Star Trek is supposed to be about. So fine, go in with an "anything goes" attitude, but then don't complain or argue when people criticize a Star Trek show for not being very "Star Trek." Or when it goes off the rails of what the show (being Star Trek) is supposed to be about.

Let's try not to twist someones response to try and make our own more valid, hmm..

 

[Paradise City]

It was quite TNG-y and apparently the execs gave orders for "no conflicts" between our heroes in an effort to recapture TNG's popularity and respond to DS9's flagging figures. Which is dumb stuff given that conflict is the big reason as to why you'd bother with a ship split between the Maquis and Starfleet. The ship rarely gets damaged in any meaningful way, I dislike court jester/pixie characters, the borg get flogged and it all comes across as nothing really that much more intense than the average 5 year mission rather than the harrowing 70 year slog I expected it to be. .

But, look, I don't "hate" it. What's this hate stuff?! It's a cool series and I enjoyed Picardo, Russ and Ryan's performances. It just had a lot of unnecessary weaknesses I feel. .

 

[stardream]

Twist what I said anyway you want but, no the content of the show determines that. Hence the hate for the ones that break it or go against what Star Trek is supposed to be about. So fine, go in with an "anything goes" attitude, but then don't complain or argue when people criticize a Star Trek show for not being very "Star Trek." Or when it goes off the rails of what the show (being Star Trek) is supposed to be about.

Let's try not to twist someones response to try and make our own more valid, hmm..

Thanks for explaining yourself. I literally didn't know what you were trying to say. Not all questions are argumentative.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I can get past the use of the reset button and lack of commitment to the premise. The main problem was the writing. There were some well written episodes but the average episode had terrible writing.

A few things Voyager writers did that are just plain hacky:
-The only characters they managed to make interesting are the ones with gimmicks, half of which were 'exploring humanity' gimmicks that rehashed the much better executed version they did with Data. They couldn't take a normal character without a gimmick and make them interesting. I know the writers blame the actors, and that makes it worse.
-They overused a lot of pat formulas, particularly the 'Trapped together with a task' formula. Take two characters. Isolate one of their character quirks each that oppose each other and have them fight about it early in the episode. Trap them together in a situation where they have to work together. In the process of doing this, come to a greater understanding of one another. To make it worse their go to guys for this formula were Tuvok and Neelix. Boring AND annoying.
-Too many fake shortcuts home. Doing it a few times is fine, but doing it over and over, the audience knowing every time it's not going to pan out, is aggravating and frustrating.
-Most of the local populations they met were full of completely deluded people unable to see their own self interest except for one guy who differs just by seeing everything the heroes' way.
-Way too much exploitation of Seven's sexuality.

Take the top 50 episodes of Voyager, you have a high quality series. You just have to pretend the other 120 don't exist.

 

[stardream]

-Too many fake shortcuts home. Doing it a few times is fine, but doing it over and over, the audience knowing every time it's not going to pan out, is aggravating and frustrating.

The stopped with the 'fake-let's get home right now-shortcuts' around the end of season 2 and then resorted to shorter jumps to cut down their time, few of which that were fake that I can recall.

 

[Sophie74656]

The stopped with the 'fake-let's get home right now-shortcuts' around the end of season 2 and then resorted to shorter jumps to cut down their time, few of which that were fake that I can recall.

That actually seems realistic to me. In the beginning of their journey they were optimistic that they would find a shortcut. As time went on they began to accept that they were likely in for a very very long journey so they went about things differently.

That's why I think in The 37s nobody wanted to stay behind. It was still early and they were hoping for a shortcut home. If an oportunity like that came around late in then show maybe some people would have thought about staying behind. Actually I wonder if there was anyone who wanted to stay behind in Workforce. If you take away the memory erasing part they seemes to have descent lives there. Maybe there were some people who made friends there or might have started something romantic and would rather stay there.

 

[jgalley]

Thanks for explaining yourself. I literally didn't know what you were trying to say. Not all questions are argumentative.

Then I apologize if my response was a bit rude then. Too used to those that disagree (or seem too) being snarky about it themselves. I misunderstood your intent.

 

[locutus101]

Then I apologize if my response was a bit rude then. Too used to those that disagree (or seem too) being snarky about it themselves. I misunderstood your intent.

When in doubt, assume that people mean well. It'll save you some aggravation.

 

[Lance]

I think a lot of the criticism is unjustified. At least in terms of Voyager itself, which often hit it out of the park in ways that TNG in particular sometimes didn't. When VOY was 'cooking' it really cooked, and some of its episodes are among my favorites in the entire franchise. But some of the criticism is also (subjectively) valid. Here at this little corner of TrekBBS, we love the show passionately. Enough so, in fact, to be able to both celebrate it *and* to be able to pick over its flaws, without those two positions being mutually exclusive. I think that's healthy.

 

[locutus101]

I think a lot of the criticism is unjustified. At least in terms of Voyager itself, which often hit it out of the park in ways that TNG in particular sometimes didn't. When VOY was 'cooking' it really cooked, and some of its episodes are among my favorites in the entire franchise. But some of the criticism is also (subjectively) valid. Here at this little corner of TrekBBS, we love the show passionately. Enough so, in fact, to be able to both celebrate it *and* to be able to pick over its flaws, without those two positions being mutually exclusive. I think that's healthy.

But Voyager has some really awful episodes like Threshold that are really hard to defend.