Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[OpenMaw]

It could be just his professional opinion, but it sounded a little extreme.

Does that mean during a war or battle he'll always get a chance to come up with some genius technological way to beat the enemy?

And if he still held to that belief years later, it was demonstrated as fool-hardy when he fought the Duras sisters. Instead of blasting them out of the sky, he used technobabble and lost the ship. The Enterprise D, even with her shields compromised, should have torn the guts out of that piss-ant BOP, but what does Riker do? Tells Troi to pull the ship out of orbit after one phaser blast, and then they turn all of their primary weapons away from the enemy. Kayyyy...

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[Tenacity]

This thread has given plenty of examples of naval forces performing all sorts of non-war activities during peacetime.

When it comes right down to it, the military does what its told (within legal bounds). If the Army is told to build roads, they do it (Romans). If the Air Force to told to fly science missions into a hurricane, they do it. If the Navy is told to run fresh water and power lines from a aircraft carrier into a earthquake damaged city, they do it.

If Starfleet is told to explore, they do it.

I just hope that in some future Trek production they show a group of Starfleet officers arguing about whether or not they are a military force.

This would be sweet.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I just hope that in some future Trek production they show a group of Starfleet officers arguing about whether or not they are a military force. The writers would be able to lift whole sections of dialogue from this site.

Only if they can also argue about what timeline they're in and whether they really use money.

 

[stardream]

Take having children and families living on Starships for example.
Is it really practical when a sudden war or battle breaks out?

To me, this was reminiscent of pioneer families who lived on the frontier knowing full well what the dangers might be. That's what explorers do. I don't know if that would be any indicator of Starfleet being military or non-military, though.

 

[C.E. Evans]

To me, this was reminiscent of pioneer families who lived on the frontier knowing full well what the dangers might be.

That's essentially the basis for having families aboard starships. Those that didn't want to take the risks stayed home.

 

[J.T.B.]

When it comes down to it, there is no need to codify whether or not Starfleet is a military because that would kill the flexibility needed by the writers and/or the cover those same writers need to excuse their laziness.

I'm not sure what more flexibility would be needed. A military organization should clearly be flexible enough to perform every function pictured in any of the series or movies, while at the same time being fundamentally devoted to peacekeeping or self-defense.

To me, again, the more interesting question is why at one point, early TNG, it was felt that something needed to be written specifically to deny military underpinnings for Starfleet, as some have addressed in this thread. And why that idea was so thoroughly forgotten, or abandoned.

 

[Jedman67]

And then the design flaws, which gave them all the reason to abandon the project and put resources back into their original passion; science and exploration.

But Obrien alone somehow seemed able to solve the problems in a relatively short time. Suggesting he was really putting effort to into it and it wasn't such an insurmountable problem.

I know it's just semantics, but it does look that way, especially when you watch that episode for the first time.

I always assumed that O'Brien had a crew of talented and crazy innovative engineers working under him, and it was his 'engineering team', not him alone, who solved the Defiants problems. Just for budget reasons we only see an occasional engineer on the staff.
Also, the Defiant project was mothballed shortly after the prototype was completed because the Borg were no longer an immediate threat - they never bothered beyond the official bureaucratic nonsense.

And if he still held to that belief years later, it was demonstrated as fool-hardy when he fought the Duras sisters. Instead of blasting them out of the sky, he used technobabble and lost the ship. The Enterprise D, even with her shields compromised, should have torn the guts out of that piss-ant BOP, but what does Riker do? Tells Troi to pull the ship out of orbit after one phaser blast, and then they turn all of their primary weapons away from the enemy. Kayyyy...

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The movie does an abysmal job of showing it, but Soran presumably gave the Duras sisters souped up torpedoes that were able to penetrate the Enterprises shields when they got the right frequency from the VISOR.
But yeah, a single obsolete BOP should have been dead meat for the Enterprise, an armada or flotilla would have been better.

 

[Jedman67]

I'm not sure what more flexibility would be needed. A military organization should clearly be flexible enough to perform every function pictured in any of the series or movies, while at the same time being fundamentally devoted to peacekeeping or self-defense.

To me, again, the more interesting question is why at one point, early TNG, it was felt that something needed to be written specifically to deny military underpinnings for Starfleet, as some have addressed in this thread. And why that idea was so thoroughly forgotten, or abandoned.

I've heard that was Gene Roddenberry's additions.

 

[jaime]

Just going to throw this in:

Powerful armed starship meets powerful yet peaceful race. Explains it's peaceful intentions and demonstrates such (and uses the very argument I make here possibly) no problem, peaceful contact is made.

Powerful armed starship meets powerful yet aggressive race. Aggressive race backs down, or gets its are handed to it skirmish demonstrating superiority of our peaceful starship. Aggressive race accepts that the ship is peaceful after all, or at the very leat knows it isn't going to best the culture that equips its peaceful ships so well. The onus is on our peaceful starship to not abuse the balance of pOwer, but essentially peace remains between the cultures. Diplomacy can help any uneasiness remaining.

Weak yet peaceful ship meets powerful peaceful culture. Peaceful culture warns space is a dangerous neighbourhood maybe even suggests an alliance to protect the weaker (military wise) culture. Because it's that kind of friendly, looks out for its fellow travellers kind of culture. (Hmm)

Weak and peaceful ship meets powerful and aggressive culture. Gets its arsecond handed to it and reveals a nice culture that doesn't protect itself very well. Aggressive culture proceeds to destroy and or plunder peaceful weakly armed culture. Even assuming the peaceful culture had the resources to defend itself, you still have a war and loss of life.


This is, I suspect, why a ship of peace, a ship of exploration and an open hand, from an organisation with 'Ex Astris Scientia' written on the floor of its main installation, will arm it's ships to the extent we see.
Because, not knowing what's out there, the odds favour making sure you can look after yourself, and if necessary others as well. That's how you make friends.

Now...that might be something as to why some of us oppose the idea of starfleet to be a military. Because it assumes much about what a miltary is in order to assume starfleet is one.

Now...I don't think Starfleet is a military. I think it may serve some of the positive purposes of one (defense of the realm ) but clearly never was one. The NX01 was a space mission to see what was out there. It proceeded to get a bloody nose.

 

[Tenacity]

and whether they really use money.

Now that's a conversation I would really like to see.

There is no money.
BS, here's a image of the property I'm buying on Earth, for my eventual retirement.
Everything on Earth is free.
Payments come out of my pay every month.
You get paid?
You don't?

Take having children and families living on Starships for example. Is it really practical when a sudden war or battle breaks out?

No different than children living on bomber bases, or missile bases, during the cold war. Primary targets.

 

[suarezguy]

One thing that seems pretty clear about a "non-military" idea of Starfleet is that no one on the production in a position to do anything about it cared enough about it to reinforce that concept in the series. So within TNG they contradict it as they carry out obviously military missions and operations and within ten years the Starfleet in a spinoff series is fighting a full-on shooting war.

So to me a more interesting question is why was Picard spouting a line of such obvious BS?

Well Behr probably had a very different take on Starfleet than Roddenberry/Hurley/Piller, considering theirs too non-original series and unrelatable, and deliberately went in a different direction and emphasis. But a part or even a lot of the fleet engaging in a military mission, let alone one as brief and minor as something like in "Redemption II", let alone being prepared to do it, doesn't make the organization the military as if that's their primary purpose and motivation.
Picard's and Riker's objections seemed to be that combat shouldn't be the primary focus of the group and that too much preparation for it could make captains too willing to engage in it rather than only as a last resort.

There are also plenty of real world examples of military forces which are for defense of the home territory only and have little or no expeditionary capability.

I think in those cases the restraint is so deep and genuine that the armed forces are referred to as defensive forces much more than if not instead of military and most foreign observers agree that while they may really be a military they are at the least a very unusual type of military.
Terms can be a matter of emphasis. I doubt the Klingons, although they themselves conduct some research, would, especially post-original series, believe humans have a military or that Starfleet is it even though they have weapons.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I'm not sure what more flexibility would be needed. A military organization should clearly be flexible enough to perform every function pictured in any of the series or movies, while at the same time being fundamentally devoted to peacekeeping or self-defense.

To me, again, the more interesting question is why at one point, early TNG, it was felt that something needed to be written specifically to deny military underpinnings for Starfleet, as some have addressed in this thread. And why that idea was so thoroughly forgotten, or abandoned.

Because Gene Roddenberry - much like George Lucas - started to believe in his own mythifying.

 

[Tenacity]

but what does Riker do? Tells Troi to pull the ship out of orbit after one phaser blast, and then they turn all of their primary weapons away from the enemy

The Enterprise's primary weapons (phasers) don't depend on the Enterprse facing a certain direction, neither do the torpedoes.

And you're assuming that after the Klingons initial attack that the Enterprise would still be capable of firing in a mannor that you're suggesting, degrading the Enterprise's offense abilities would be a obvious objective for the first Klingon torpedo.

In the final attack Riker ordered a "full spread" of torpedoes, Worf was only able to fire a single torpedo.

 

[Tallguy]

The writers needed the Enterprise to be destroyed. A better battle could be written, but it comes down to "blah blah blah and the Enterprise crashes."

 

[JoeZhang]

It has just occurred to me - if the Federation's primary defence against harden warriors like the Klingons and threats like the Borg is philosophers, bio-fuel specialists and counsellors who do warfare on the side - think how powerful they'd be if they had an actual military!

 

[Tenacity]

^ The Borg cube (in FC) wouldn't have gotten anywhere near Earth.

 

[Tallguy]

^ The Borg cube (in FC) wouldn't have gotten anywhere near Earth.

So the Borg aren't all that tough, it's just that the Fed isn't defended? Explains Vejur I guess.

 

[JoeZhang]

So the Borg aren't all that tough, it's just that the Fed isn't defended? Explains Vejur I guess.

It's simply without an actual military, there is a polite debate of if it's the turn of the catering corp or the Parks and gardens division to defend the earth.

 

[Jedi_Master]

It's simply without an actual military, there is a polite debate of if it's the turn of the catering corp or the Parks and gardens division to defend the earth.

The Sanitation folks get a shot every third Sunday.

 

[JoeZhang]

The Sanitation folks get a shot every third Sunday.

"So students, you see that the Vulcan K'ta is very similar to the earth daffodil. Note how the perianths (petals) are mostly yellow or white, but can occasionally be orange, green, or red or a combination of these colours. Notice also... excuse me students it's Star Fleet command",

"I'm awfully sorry, I'll have to postpone the rest of my talk, I'm required to go on a covert special forces operation to retract an ancient bioweapon of mass destruction. I'll be back on Monday".