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Spoilers Dark Matter - Season 2

I find Killjoys hard to get into, it feels dark and plodding to me where Dark Matter is, and I know this is vague, just easier to watch. I have my criticisms of the Stargate shows but they were generally slick and breezy (many times too much so) and Mallozzi as showrunner must know how to bring that to the table.
 
I find Killjoys hard to get into, it feels dark and plodding to me where Dark Matter is, and I know this is vague, just easier to watch.

That's surprising. I'd never call Killjoys "plodding." It's a very fast-paced show with a lot happening in a small amount of time. (After all, its seasons are only 77% as long as DM's seasons.) On the other hand, I do find some of DM's plotlines rather plodding. There are so many parallel subplots going on that some of them only get a focus once or twice a season.


I have my criticisms of the Stargate shows but they were generally slick and breezy (many times too much so) and Mallozzi as showrunner must know how to bring that to the table.

I have the impression that I considered Mallozzi and Mullie to be among the weaker members of the Stargate writing staffs. It's been a while, though.
 
I think Mallozzi/Mullie brought some mediocrity to Stargate. They were OK but not as good as Glassner/Wright/Cooper.
 
Two isn't exactly human so comparing her warmth with Dutch isn't exactly fair. :)
It seems like they should give the Android a name for when she's passing as human.
 
Two isn't exactly human so comparing her warmth with Dutch isn't exactly fair. :)

She is human. She's just a human created in a lab to be a perfect specimen of humanity. That's got nothing whatsoever to do with her capacity for emotion or warmth. Even if she weren't human, I don't see what that would have to do with her capacity for warmth. Lots of nonhuman species can be warm and loving.


It seems like they should give the Android a name for when she's passing as human.

She did use a pseudonym, Kiva Ehrens. Though that was an alias she used with the specific intent of getting in trouble with the cops, so it's probably "burned" and won't be used again.
 
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about these shows. Everyone is entitled to their own views. That's what makes these discussions so interesting.
 
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about these shows. Everyone is entitled to their own views. That's what makes these discussions so interesting.

Yup, that's why I was sharing my views. Not to say others were wrong, just for the sake of having a dialogue.
 
But that's exactly why Pawter's version was handled better -- because it was handled efficiently, set up and paid off in the same episode. When we learned of her impairment before she performed major surgery, it actually created suspense through the risk that the surgery could fail. On this show, they set up Devon's addiction and shaky hands before he operated on Six -- which seemed like it was meant to set up a danger to Six, a risk that the operation would fail -- and then they did absolutely nothing with that setup, having the surgery go perfectly fine off-camera. That's just bad plot structure.
I agree that the impression was given something would go wrong with Six' surgery, and that turned out to be a false bit of tension that was created. Maybe that was not the best writing (though I'm just glad Six made it and for once DM actually avoided/subverted a cliché by having things go smoothly in spite of Devon's condition).

However, just because Pawter's plot was handled all in one episode doesn't make it better IMO. Taking a few episodes to set it up and resolve it is fine also (lots of novels don't handle this kind of thing in one quick chapter, to take the novel comparison further; books like the "A song of ice and fire" series set up plots entire books beforehand, at times) and as was mentioned by Sojourner, an addiction like that shouldn't just "go away" because the episode that handles it is done. That feels more like TNG to me; everything neatly compressed within one episode (or at best, a two-parter) and then never mentioned again, or at best paid lip service (like the inane "warp speed restriction").

What I like about both shows is that, now that Bendavid's gone, they both have women of color in their top-billed roles, which is a striking thing. (Although it's more of a technicality in DM's case, since they're an ensemble cast billed in "numerical" order.) And they're both playing characters who are natural leaders, respected by their crews and friends, smart and tough and ultra-capable, and they're both playing women asserting their independence from the men who "created" them and feel entitled to control their lives. (And they're both mind-bogglingly gorgeous, too.)

I talked about how similar Dutch and Two are, but I like Dutch better because she has more warmth, more affection.
Dutch shows affection towards her team and friends, whereas Two is far less expressive in those matters (quite possibly a result of male writers deciding they are better off leaving things more to the imagination, offscreen, rather than risk writing dialogue that may not be their forte). But Two is consistently shown as taking great care for her crew, making sure no-one is left behind and that everybody has a task. She's also surprisingly forgiving. In many ways, she really is the heart of the crew and show, even more so than Five or Six.

Dutch is great to her friends, but from the very casual way she tends to shoot her way through warrants, I feel she is often cold towards the subject of warrants. In that sense, the Killjoys often act just as much as mercenaries as the Raza crew does. Arguably even more, since the Raza gang turned on their employers in the pilot episode(s) and they seem to debate more often among themselvers "should we even do this thing?".
 
I know there's nothing to really back it up, but I've always felt they were in a shared universe.
As was mentioned by Christopher on the other thread, FTL communication is not known within the Quad (except to Khlyen).

On the other hand, the "green goo" thing goes far beyond even the bioengineering behind Two.

The combination of royalty (the nine) and evil corporations would go nicely together with DM though.
 
However, just because Pawter's plot was handled all in one episode doesn't make it better IMO.

Maybe, but they're taking so long to do anything with Devon that it's hard to say whether it will be handled well, and that in itself doesn't feel to me like the best way of handling it. This show's had a problem with having too many parallel arcs to give each one enough room to breathe in a short, 13-episode season, and now they've added at least two more arcs on top of what they already had. (True, they lost one of the cast members, so technically it's only one member larger, but the arc involving the Darren Cross conspiracy is still going on, just not being carried by One anymore.) Nyx and Devon have been regulars for multiple episodes now, and they've barely had anything to do, Devon especially. Heck, his role in his debut episode was so small that I didn't even realize he was there.


Taking a few episodes to set it up and resolve it is fine also

Sure, if it's done well and paced well. This just feels too cursory and half-hearted to me. Perhaps because it's so cliched, the whole "doctor with a drug problem" thing. It didn't feel cliched with Pawter because it was just one more piece of the characterization that had already been established for her, but with Devon, we don't really know anything else about him yet. So far, he's even more boring than One was.


and as was mentioned by Sojourner, an addiction like that shouldn't just "go away" because the episode that handles it is done.

I think Pawter's drug problem has been alluded to on occasion, and I'm sure the writers haven't forgotten it.


That feels more like TNG to me; everything neatly compressed within one episode (or at best, a two-parter) and then never mentioned again, or at best paid lip service (like the inane "warp speed restriction").

Or like both of the episodes about the people from Three's past? For that matter, where has Wil Wheaton been since his one episode? This show's had its share of one-and-dones, though it does follow up on them eventually.


Dutch shows affection towards her team and friends, whereas Two is far less expressive in those matters (quite possibly a result of male writers deciding they are better off leaving things more to the imagination, offscreen, rather than risk writing dialogue that may not be their forte). But Two is consistently shown as taking great care for her crew, making sure no-one is left behind and that everybody has a task. She's also surprisingly forgiving. In many ways, she really is the heart of the crew and show, even more so than Five or Six.

That's a fair analysis, intellectually speaking. As far as the conception of the character goes, I wouldn't argue. But in terms of my emotional reaction to the actresses' performances, I just feel John-Kamen's performance is more passionate and expressive overall, and I like that.


Dutch is great to her friends, but from the very casual way she tends to shoot her way through warrants, I feel she is often cold towards the subject of warrants. In that sense, the Killjoys often act just as much as mercenaries as the Raza crew does. Arguably even more, since the Raza gang turned on their employers in the pilot episode(s) and they seem to debate more often among themselvers "should we even do this thing?".

Except that Dutch made it clear in the very first episode that she would not take kill warrants, that she could kill in self-defense if she had to but refused to be an assassin ever again. She's very like the Raza crew in that she's trying to get away from her criminal past, though she tends to get drawn back in despite herself.



As was mentioned by Christopher on the other thread, FTL communication is not known within the Quad (except to Khlyen).

On the other hand, the "green goo" thing goes far beyond even the bioengineering behind Two.

Well, it's always been clear that Killjoys is much farther in the future than Dark Matter. DM is clearly set in our galaxy. Darren Cross was from Earth itself, and a lot of the locations mentioned are familiar star names. (Indeed, there was a recent episode where the constellation of Orion was clearly visible behind the Raza as it came out of FTL -- which made no sense, because they were said to be in a remote sector, and Orion would only look that way from within or near the Sol system.) And the characters are familiar with things from Earth popular culture, like Star Wars and Charlotte's Web. But Killjoys is set in a distant galaxy, the civilization has its own distinct religion and culture and food and drink, and according to the Scarbacks' litany, they came to the Quad "from a home we've forgotten," suggesting they're so far in the future that they don't even remember Earth. So while I was always open to the idea that they were in a shared universe, I felt they had to be in very different eras within that universe.

But the revelation that FTL communication is unknown/new in the KJ universe seems to suggest that it has to be separate from the DM universe, where FTL comms are used routinely. Though there is a possibility that the tech was lost in some civilizational collapse, I suppose. Still, it suggests that the producers of the respective shows don't have any plans to cross over or coordinate their universes.
 
I think it's certainly a share-able universe. SyFy has been known to do it before - they crossed over Eureka and Warehouse 13, which were also not really meant to be the same universe, but did it anyway. It's a really, really big universe and IMO they can easily cross it over by simply ignoring the contradictory details (and they're just details, nothing that should get in the way of the story). Furthermore, whatever they'd do in a crossover story would not likely impact either show's overall story.

It's pretty much like Japan's various Tokusatsu (Sentai / Power Rangers, Kamen Rider, etc.) shows. Largely they exist in separate universes with different rules, technologies and continuities, and yet they're always crossing over anyway. The basic rule there is that "they don't cross over except for when they do", and I think that can easily be applied here too. The biggest result is that the nerds will go crazy trying to reconcile the various tiny details, but that's really what we live for, no? :)

Mark
 
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I think it's certainly a share-able universe. SyFy has been known to do it before - they crossed over Eureka and Warehouse 13, which were also not really meant to be the same universe, but did it anyway.

Yes, they did, but I felt they shouldn't have. For one thing, Eureka was a universe where everything was explained in terms of science (albeit quite fanciful science most of the time, though it got better later on), while Warehouse 13 was urban fantasy/magic realism. For another, Eureka used a time-travel model where history could be, and had been, changed, while W13 at the time used a model that insisted history was impossible to change (although W13 later abandoned that and did a time-changing arc without addressing the discrepancy).

There was also their even more ill-conceived attempt to bring the much darker and more naturalistic Alphas into the same shared universe by having Lindsay Wagner's recurring W13 character Dr. Calder appear in an Alphas episode. Fortunately, it was done in a way that avoided any mention whatsoever of any other elements from W13, aside from a hint that Calder had prior familiarity with government secrecy, so it wasn't as intrusive on the show's reality as the other crossovers.
It's a really, really big universe and IMO they can easily cross it over by simply ignoring the contradictory details (and they're just details, nothing that should get in the way of the story).

But just pretending they were in the same reality and the same time would deeply damage my suspension of disbelief, given that Killjoys is clearly much, much farther in the future. At a guess, I'd say Dark Matter is maybe 200-400 years in the future, a very typical time range for SFTV, while Killjoys (music selections aside) feels more like it's thousands or tens of thousands of years ahead, one of those really far-future universes like Dune or Asimov's Galactic Empire. The problem, though, is that American SF television shows and movies rarely venture farther ahead than the 25th century or so (even Futurama's 31st century is an outlier), so people just assume any given SF future is in the same time range. The only other really far-future TV series I can think of (aside from assorted Doctor Who episodes) is Red Dwarf, set 3 million years in the future.


It's pretty much like Japan's various Tokusatsu (Sentai / Power Rangers, Kamen Rider, etc.) shows. Largely they exist in separate universes with different rules, technologies and continuities, and yet they're always crossing over anyway. The basic rule there is that "they don't cross over except for when they do", and I think that can easily be applied here too.

But those are not the kind of shows we take all that seriously to begin with. Different shows call for different levels of suspension of disbelief. Tokusatsu shows have such stylized and fanciful realities to begin with that it doesn't really matter if they break their own tenuous rules. But DM and KJ are both reasonably serious, self-consistent shows that have a higher level of credibility to begin with. I'd rather not see that undermined.

And as I said, if the producers had been interested in doing a crossover, I don't think KJ's writers would've established something about their universe's science that so blatantly conflicts with DM's. So I doubt this will ever be anything more than a hypothetical discussion.
 
Or like both of the episodes about the people from Three's past? For that matter, where has Wil Wheaton been since his one episode? This show's had its share of one-and-dones, though it does follow up on them eventually.
Wil Wheaton will be back, I'm sure. The HQ building of his "White Dwarf Starf" megacorp was identified by Nyx and Two in episode 4, indicating that they will go there later this season (it's where Two is from, apparently). Even if Wil Wheaton isn't there when the Raza gang pays a visit, it would likely be due to actor (in)availability rather than design. This particular story will get a follow-up; this is about Two's origin and the original appearance of Wheaton ended with a threatening conversation that demands a follow up.

As for Three, Sarah was mentioned a few times afterwards, but I don't think his past is something that DM will focus much on. With everybody in his old lives being dead, he doesn't have much to go back to anyway.
The Sarah episode also helped to soften him up and build some sympathy with the audience. If anything, a lasting consequence was that Five and Three's relation improved quite a bit, something which is played up in S2.
 
Wil Wheaton will be back, I'm sure.

I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I was just saying that the storytelling isn't that different from ST:TNG, which would also advance ongoing story arcs through various single episodes that were widely spread apart -- notably with the Klingon politics arc throughout the series, for example. Although I'm sure that DM's storylines are more worked out in advance, which would put it more toward the DS9 or Babylon 5 model. My point, basically, is that the difference is a matter of degree. Being episodic doesn't mean a show can't have ongoing arcs, and vice-versa. Most shows have both episodic and arc elements, and it's just a question of how much of each is in the mix.
 
A significant difference is that TNG did not plan such things as the Klingon political arc; a writer who wanted to do something with it in his or her episode could do so, but there was no master plan overseen by the showrunner. And in this particular case, there was almost a status quo between Federation and Klingon Empire. Tensions were getting somewhat higher under Gowron, but it was left to DS9 to develop this and even then I've heard that Ron Moore did not really plan to do dramatic movement on this front until he started to plan the relevant seasons. DS9 did, eventually, deliver on this in a big way, but I got the impression it happened almost by accident (ironically, the plotting on DS9 was tighter than on nuBSG).

In DM, Mallozzi seems to hold a relatively tight rein on things and there aren't many writers for the show. TNG was much more a show were lots of writers could pitch an idea and write a script.

Sure DM has episodic elements (but so does Killjoys with the warrant system, or the particular problem of the week as happens more often in S2), but it seems to have a general plan to go from A to B. TNG did not, IMO; even seen over many seasons, there was very little sense of movement. Everything was still more or less the same at the end of S7, as it was in "Encounter at Farpoint".

If DM makes five seasons, I doubt we will be able to say the same thing. Same goes for Killjoys after its done.
 
A significant difference is that TNG did not plan such things as the Klingon political arc; a writer who wanted to do something with it in his or her episode could do so, but there was no master plan overseen by the showrunner.

Sure. I'm not saying there were no differences; I'm just saying there was not a complete lack of similarity. TNG and the other shows of the era represent the early stage in the transition from purely episodic, low-continuity TV to a more continuity-heavy approach. Obviously different shows along that spectrum have had differences in their specific approaches, but I'm the sort of person who likes to look for overall patterns and recurring themes and unifying theories.
 
Recurring plot threads in non-serialised tv shows was a thing loooooong before the time of TNG. Hell, there were even one or two in the original Star Trek series.
 
I like the idea that the Android is keeping the upgrade that allows her to act more human, yet is nonetheless choosing to "be herself" as a default. It's a nice antidote to the notion that someone is missing something if they don't act "normal." And Zoie Palmer's slightly modulated her performance -- it's a little more self-conscious, as though the Android is consciously putting on her old mannerisms as an affectation, rather than it just being how she acts. It's interesting.

I think this show has a lot of cliched sci-fi tropes, but sometimes it comes up with some clever ones, like Transfer Transit. The Seers and their predictive ability -- based on collating massive amounts of data rather than some kind of psychic power -- is a decently interesting idea. It's similar to the Machine on Person of Interest and the Zola algorithm from Captain America: The Winter Soldier, but combining it with the idea of a human collective consciousness makes it more distinct. I dunno, mainly it's just a relief to see a sci-fi show not falling back on hackneyed psychic nonsense.
 
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