Fastest Ship = invulnerable?

[unk._Red_Shirt]

From my understanding, the fastet ship in an Engagement must be invulnerable. If your opponent is more powerful but slower you just need to engage warp. IMHO, the timelag the Opponent has bevor he can jump to warp too, is in conjunction with the high FTL-speed enough, to stay out of Weapon range during the beginning of the warp-chase. And after that, the distance will increase significantly.

In "The Battle" and "Peak Performance" it seems, that Sensors can't pick up that the other ship is engaging warp early enough.

So the Question rises, why, for example, Picard has to be afraid when he encouters a Warbird.
In "Tin Man" we learn, that the Romulan Warbird is slower than the E-D.
So, in "Defector" did he really need the help of the Klingons? What if he instead engages warp? The Romulans could never follow him. He has always the opportunity to fight or leave at will.

Any Thoughts to this?

All the Best

Red_Shirt

 

[Timo]

There are plenty of chase scenes in Star Trek. All of them are based on the concept of the faster ship deciding that there should be a chase. If the fleeing party is the faster one, then she is choosing not to get away, because leading the chasing party towards a target or away from one is tactically beneficial. If the chasing party is the faster one, then she is choosing not to catch up, because herding the fleeing party towards or away from a target is what she desires.

"Why is Picard afraid of an opponent"? Uh, when would he be afraid? Escaping is always an option - it's just one that he never chooses to take, exactly because he is not afraid of an opponent. There's no reason why he should head away from a posturing Romulan warbird, instead of confronting her and engaging in negotiations or perhaps an exchange of fire. A flight would accomplish very little; a good chat may prevent a war.

When he does get justly afraid, of Q in "Farpoint" or the Borg in "Q Who?", he soon finds the chase futile, with the pursuer the faster party. Which is only natural, because a party that manages to scare Picard is likely to possess not just better weapons but also a better drive.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dilandu]

From my understanding, the fastet ship in an Engagement must be invulnerable. If your opponent is more powerful but slower you just need to engage warp.

It could work only if you are able to run without compromising your mission. For example, if you must protect the planet from attack, you could not run from the opponent.

 

[Richard Baker]

Aside from the Picard Maneuver I think using Warp Speed as a battle tactic is largely ignored.

The design of the Akira class appears to be two fold- a through deck shuttle bay for launching attack craft but more interestingly as torpedo boat. It has a very large number of torpedo tubes facing almost every direction- I could see it popping out of warp in the middle of an enemy formation, firing every tube at once and then warping out again before they could react.
Using warp to micro-jump during combat instead of using the much slower impulse engines would have changed many of the battles we saw on screen IMO...

 

[Dilandu]

It was generally assumed that the tipycal battle is fought between two warpships.

I could see it popping out of warp in the middle of an enemy formation, firing every tube at once and then warping out again before they could react.

The warp drive is basically the Alcubierre drive. You don't need to "pop out" of warp to attack enemy. You just need to be close enough to envelope him with your warp bubble.

 

[Timo]

I could see it popping out of warp in the middle of an enemy formation, firing every tube at once and then warping out again before they could react.

But reaction times supposedly are fast. Otherwise, it would also make sense for cloaking-capable ships to recloak during a battle. Yet this only ever happens if there are multiple cloaked attackers (DS9 "Rules of Engagement") and the defender can't properly concentrate his fire.

Once you engage in TNG era battle, you are committed: any maneuver other than raising maximal shields and firing back gives the advantage to the enemy, who will be holding his shields high and firing back.

Firing torpedoes from the middle of a formation would probably be in no way superior to firing them from the outside of the formation. The formation would see them coming, be they already deployed or still inside your ship, and would react accordingly. Add to this the 17th century naval warfare rules as regards weapons vs. protection: you can't kill with one volley (unless the enemy shields are down), but need to pound the other guy for several minutes to make a dent.

The Picard Maneuver is a case of an extreme speed differential, and even then was impotent against the E-D, a modern ship that clearly could see (and let the audience see) the Stargazer coming despite the speed differential. Which only makes sense: if sensors can't cope with warp nine'ish, then the ship herself can't fly at warp nine'ish without hitting something. The Maneuver thus must depend on the opponent having a reduced capacity for FTL scanning, typically from combat damage.

Which in turn makes good sense in the context of "The Battle": Picard's (faked) log does speak of him "mistaking" a sensor cluster for a weapons emplacement, so Picard (actually) may well have fired on Ferengi sensors early on, and would inevitably be able to tell that the Ferengi have no FTL sensing capability (because FTL is "unnatural" and said sensors thus must be active rather than passive, emitting something detectable when working).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jgalley]

In all the years I've watched Star Trek (I'm 40 and started when I was 5-6 maybe?) I've NEVER heard of a ship at Warp not being able to be caught up too or fired upon UNTIL Star Trek Into Darkness "You think you're safe at warp?" and even then the other ship catches up and still fires upon the Enterprise. We even see evidence to the contrary where two ships, at warp and supposedly vast distances apart, are firing at each other....

Sooo...where did this come from exactly?

 

[Dilandu]

Basically exactly from STID. All previous Star Trek works dealt with warp in more or less realistic way - that it's the alcubierre bubble that could be engaged by the similar bubble. But the authors of the STID apparently decided that the warp is some sort of "hyperspace".

 

[Timo]

Or then Kirk simply thought his ship was the fastest there is, and Marcus showed him wrong.

It's not as if the ability to fight at warp were declared a novelty in the movie. The ability of Marcus to catch up is the impossible thing, by Kirk's explicit words. Kirk did have a head start of several seconds - but Marcus had "advanced warp capabilities" Kirk was not aware of.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mountie1988]

It's electronic warfare capability. Not number of torpedo tubes,not number of phasers. Defensive screening and tactical speed are important, but tracking the opponent has always been most decisive in star trek and real life. In other words: It's not star wars, not fasa.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But reaction times supposedly are fast. Otherwise, it would also make sense for cloaking-capable ships to recloak during a battle. Yet this only ever happens if there are multiple cloaked attackers (DS9 "Rules of Engagement") and the defender can't properly concentrate his fire.

It didn't work this way at all in TOS (Balance of Terror, Deadly Years) and there are plenty of examples in TNG. The ships that attacked the Bortas, for example, dropped their cloak and attacked and then didn't bother to cloak again because they were basically kicking Bortas' ass and a boarding action was the next step. Then again, Kurn's ship popping up to save the day forced the attacking ship to cloak and escape while still taking disruptor fire.

The Klingon attack on the Enterprise-C has this same feature, with the Klingon ship suddenly appearing and firing before anyone could even get to their stations and then disappearing just as quickly. And Defiant herself did this to the Jem'hadar and the Klingons MULTIPLE times, dropping its cloak just as it entered firing position with a "let her rip!" phaser salvo, as did Martok on the Rotarran.

Firing torpedoes from the middle of a formation would probably be in no way superior to firing them from the outside of the formation. The formation would see them coming, be they already deployed or still inside your ship, and would react accordingly.

Again, there are alot of examples of it NOT working that way of plenty of examples of EXACTLY that happening. Once again, the ambush of the Bortas is a prime example, and in TOS the Romulan attack in "The Deadly Years" begins with no warning at all. The same thing basically happened to the USS Honshu when it got unexpectedly bounced by a Cardassian squadron.

Also, IIRC this sort of thing happened to Voyager on a fairly regular basis; the alien of the week would appear out of nowhere and open fire before they could get their shields up.

 

[Timo]

The ships that attacked the Bortas, for example, dropped their cloak and attacked and then didn't bother to cloak again because they were basically kicking Bortas' ass and a boarding action was the next step. Then again, Kurn's ship popping up to save the day forced the attacking ship to cloak and escape while still taking disruptor fire.

The Klingon attack on the Enterprise-C has this same feature, with the Klingon ship suddenly appearing and firing before anyone could even get to their stations and then disappearing just as quickly. And Defiant herself did this to the Jem'hadar and the Klingons MULTIPLE times, dropping its cloak just as it entered firing position with a "let her rip!" phaser salvo, as did Martok on the Rotarran.

That's basically what I mean: it only pays to recloak if you intend to disengage for good, like the Klingon scout in "Yesterday's Enterprise", or to achieve immediate kill, like the Defiant or Rotarran engagements involving recloaking.

Again, there are alot of examples of it NOT working that way of plenty of examples of EXACTLY that happening. Once again, the ambush of the Bortas is a prime example

To the contrary, it's an example of surprise requiring the use of invisibility cloaks...

The other examples don't indicate that a torpedo volley fired from a distance would have fared better or worse. But they aren't "warping into formation" examples - except for "Balance of Terror", where the Enterprise explicitly fails to surprise the Romulans by (inadvertently) warping into their formation!

Why do ships rather than torps perform the warp maneuver more often than not? IFF issues? Just an indication that torpedoes aren't decisive weapons and that only phasers (which work better at short ranges) are? I'd vote for the latter in all eras, seeing how all the skippers so single-mindedly prefer their death rays to their warp projectiles.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The other examples don't indicate that a torpedo volley fired from a distance would have fared better or worse. But they aren't "warping into formation" examples - except for "Balance of Terror", where the Enterprise explicitly fails to surprise the Romulans by (inadvertently) warping into their formation!

I'm thinking you are confusing "Balance of Terror" with another episode altogether.

Anyway, the Reboot films actually has the very good example of the Enterprise warping into position to shoot down the Narada's missiles; the crew only has 3 to 5 seconds warning before Enterprise arrives, which wouldn't be quite enough time in a combat situation. A similar thing happens when Vengeance intercepts the Enterprise, though in this case they had a lack of precedent going for them too.

The Klingon ship in "Errand of Mercy" arguably does this, closing quickly on Enterprise and firing before it has a chance to respond.

Why do ships rather than torps perform the warp maneuver more often than not?

Because torpedoes aren't capable of going to warp, despite what the tech manuals would have you believe. If you fire them at warp they'll stay at that speed for a little while before drag from interstellar medium finally slows them back to sublight, but other than that, a torpedo is just a torpedo.

 

[Timo]

I'm thinking you are confusing "Balance of Terror" with another episode altogether.

Indeed, sorry. I refer to your post for the proper identity.

Anyway, the Reboot films actually has the very good example of the Enterprise warping into position to shoot down the Narada's missiles; the crew only has 3 to 5 seconds warning before Enterprise arrives, which wouldn't be quite enough time in a combat situation.

It cannot be emphasized enough that Nero was no warrior, his vessel was no warship, and his crew was a bunch of miners. (Moreover, it's not as if Nero could have done anything, as he had no weapons.)

A similar thing happens when Vengeance intercepts the Enterprise, though in this case they had a lack of precedent going for them too.

Hmm, what about the three-second warning (which in fact was dozens upon dozens of seconds, with Sulu merely giving the final ETA as 3s) would have been insufficient for a response? It doesn't take that long to say "Target and fire!", let alone for the auto-deflectors to snap up.

Or do you mean the warp chase? I gather the situation would be analogous to the "Deadly Years" intercept in a sense, with both parties at warp, but Sulu did get his warning - he was just too stupid to understand what it meant. The Romulans had more experience on what an enemy warp signature ought to look like.

The Klingon ship in "Errand of Mercy" arguably does this, closing quickly on Enterprise and firing before it has a chance to respond.

Here the "no decisive punch" clause seems to kick in: whatever she fires, it isn't sufficient to do damage, and there's no time to either recloak or rewarp. Starfleet reaction time and superior weapons decide the game.

Because torpedoes aren't capable of going to warp, despite what the tech manuals would have you believe. If you fire them at warp they'll stay at that speed for a little while before drag from interstellar medium finally slows them back to sublight, but other than that, a torpedo is just a torpedo.

1) Why would torpedoes behave like this when probes launched from the same tubes explicitly self-accelerate to warp?

2) Why would any of this matter, when the issue is whether to warp into a formation or launch a volley of warp torpedoes into it? If the torps can't go to warp on their own, then they simply get launched using the well-known alternate method that allows them to go to warp. Except they never are.

It instead seems that torps are poor weapons overall. Great for planetary bombardment and demolition work, it seems, but apparently no good against shields. So they'd have to catch the enemy formation by surprise and unshielded, and it just doesn't work: warping in is something you get plenty of advance warning on, enough to save your ship even in "Errand of Mercy" scenarios.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

1) Why would torpedoes behave like this when probes launched from the same tubes explicitly self-accelerate to warp?

Different performance regimes. A torpedo has to punch through an enemy's deflector shields and deliver damage to the ship, and being equipped with a warp engine probably wouldn't be helpful with that. Moreover, a torpedo has to be fast and agile enough during its terminal phase to avoid getting shot down by enemy defensive weapons; a warp engine would be dead weight during that last phase of the intercept.

The lack of a "standoff weapon" equipped with a warp drive -- and capable of being launched from light years away -- is actually a glaring problem in Star Trek, but they never actually use torpedoes this way and that's revealing in and of itself.

It instead seems that torps are poor weapons overall. Great for planetary bombardment and demolition work, it seems, but apparently no good against shields.

It could be that phasers are most effective at taking down deflector shields but don't do alot of physical damage except for thermal effects and some electronic messiness; torpedoes would be the coup de grace for when you've overloaded your enemy's shields or shot their generators from their mounts.

Not exactly canon, but that's pretty much how they're used in STO. Photon torpedoes do almost nothing against shields, but if you open a hole in his shield coverage you can usually smash an opponent with a single spread where phasers would have to chop him down little by little.

 

[Timo]

The lack of a "standoff weapon" equipped with a warp drive -- and capable of being launched from light years away -- is actually a glaring problem in Star Trek, but they never actually use torpedoes this way and that's revealing in and of itself.

Not particularly revealing since the torpedoes don't see use at shorter ranges, either.

There are some standoff weapons, capable of warp, and even puny Cardassians and Maquis have those. These automated kamikaze starships just don't appeal to the big empires for some reason. Then again, planeticide doesn't appeal to them, either, regardless of the spectrum of techniques available. So standoff may be a doctrinal no-no rather than a technical one.

It could be that phasers are most effective at taking down deflector shields but don't do alot of physical damage except for thermal effects and some electronic messiness; torpedoes would be the coup de grace for when you've overloaded your enemy's shields or shot their generators from their mounts.

Apart from STO, the TNG Tech Manual suggests something roughly similar: phasers open holes for torpedoes, or at least create local weak spots. Although this we never see. Shields don't let stuff through any easier if phasered or damaged - you have to actually collapse them if you want a scot-free shot.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dilandu]

There are some standoff weapons, capable of warp, and even puny Cardassians and Maquis have those. These automated kamikaze starships just don't appeal to the big empires for some reason. Then again, planeticide doesn't appeal to them, either, regardless of the spectrum of techniques available. So standoff may be a doctrinal no-no rather than a technical one.

Basically it was always assumed that the torpedoes are warp-capable weapons, and it's more logical this way. They have pretty compact shuttles, capable of warp speed: and the engine units of shuttles are pretty small.

Generally, the best approximation of the Star Trek warp combat is "you could use the phasers when the enemy is inside your Alcubierre bubble; to reach the enemy outside the bubble, you could use torpedoes." Frankly, it make quite a lot of sence.

 

[Timo]

There are instances of extreme phaser ranges, so them being FTL weapons in their own right is something of a foregone conclusion. But warp chases nevertheless feature torpedoes more commonly than phasers (perhaps because TNG had many chases and the VFX folks were cheapskates, finding torpedo effects cheaper in combination with warp than phaser beams).

Phasers see extensive warp chase use in episodes like "Message in a Bottle" or "Non Sequitur", though, so again we're talking about doctrines and preferred tactics, not actual hard technical limitations.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dilandu]

There are instances of extreme phaser ranges, so them being FTL weapons in their own right is something of a foregone conclusion. But warp chases nevertheless feature torpedoes more commonly than phasers (perhaps because TNG had many chases and the VFX folks were cheapskates, finding torpedo effects cheaper in combination with warp than phaser beams).

Phasers see extensive warp chase use in episodes like "Message in a Bottle" or "Non Sequitur", though, so again we're talking about doctrines and preferred tactics, not actual hard technical limitations.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, the effective phaser distance in warp depends of the size of Alcubierre bubble around the ship. The exact size of bubble, as I recall, was never stated, but seems to be pretty large - maybe hundreds of thousands of kilometers radius. But it greatly depend of configuration.

I doubt that phaser beam could travel outside the bubble - the warped space on the border would probably twist the beam unpredictably, and the background radiation and parcticle streams would defocus the beam. Inside the bubble, they should work just fine.

The torpedoes are seems to be able to leave the bubble and move outside - i.e. they are capable of hitting the opponent in his own bubble.

It seems that there isn't "universal" solution. Depending of the warp bubble size and configuration, in some situations phasers would be more effective, in some situations - the torpedoes would be the only possible answer.

 

[Timo]

Well, the effective phaser distance in warp depends of the size of Alcubierre bubble around the ship.

Clearly it doesn't, as we have seen the edges of a warp bubble (of the NX ships) and they aren't in the multi-AU range.

Perhaps it's best to ditch the Alcubierre nonsense altogether and declare warp fields something different altogether?

Timo Saloniemi