Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[jaime]

I don't entirely agree with this point (though I think you'd have a stronger case for armies), however I agree that this is not Starfleet's primary purpose and therefore I think that it is unlikely that Starfleet maintains personnel trained only for this role (ie infantry) but rather multi-disciplinary personnel that can take on that role should the situation demand it.



And one of the most efficient ways of combating those realities, is to ensure that people who find themselves in those situations have the best training, equipment and skillsets to allow them to survive and to protect others.



'(Good) people who when they need to will defend everyone' existing outside of the accountability of a military (or law enforcement) chain of command are vigilanties. While I like a good comic book as much as the next person, there are too many cases of this type of thing being ruled by individual prejudices and tragic misunderstandings for me to believe that it's a 'better' model.

As you say, 'or law enforcement' in my personal experience, the police are not a military, as that is not how they work where I am from. I also agree with the coastguard comparisons above, and while Hornblower and the age of sail are without a doubt part of treks inspiration, I find that more to be about the stories than the organisational structures we see on screen.
Though I do believe the historical figure who served as part of Hornblowers inspiration, once pulled something of a Kirkesque stunt.

I don't mind military fictions, understand the need for a military in real world terms. I also have an opinion on why it is not needed in trek.

Your skill set training argument is fine for what we think of as 'good' soldiers. And I couldn't agree more.

However, if a uniform, a rank structure, a weapon, an organisation of such define a military (as is argued often as defining starfleet) then there are corners of this earth that have those things, and are decidedly not on the side of good.
In star trek, all humanity are basically the good guys, because they act as such, not because they wear the uniform.
It's complex, but in treks case, starfleet being a military brings nothing to the table, and it specifically not being a military, actually does in terms of the ideals that the storytelling tries to follow.

 

[Tallguy]

Catching up. A few things that hit me:

Actually Pike called the Federation a peace keeping armada (because JJ doesn't really understand words sometimes). And in Into Darkness Scotty asked if this wasn't a job for the military. So in the Kelvin timeline at least there is a military and it is not Starfleet. (I'd be very curious to see them. AND see what their relationship is with the organization with the big armed ships that isn't the military.)

"No money" has been very much embraced by the fans, I think. I hear it ALL the time. (But people totally have property). "Love instructor" has only been heard in the TMP novel.

As Nick Meyer has pointed out, all of Kirk's negotiating is at the point of a very very big gun. Even in Mirror, Mirror the fact the he will not blow away a planet that won't fall in line is in itself a negotiation tactic. The reason he negotiates so hard in TMP is because they are totally outgunned.

The Vulcans in Kirk's time (Sarek) definitely think Starfleet is military.

If NASA was armed AT ALL, let alone as heavily as Starfleet is it would be a serious international indecent to say nothing of a violation of treaty. Even if we said "but they are not military".

We have seen civilian populations in TOS and later Treks. They seem to be unarmed. If Starfleet is armed just because "space is dangerous" then why isn't every ship in Star Trek armed (regardless of being in Starfleet or not)? Especially in a post-scarcity economy where cost would not be an object?

 

[jaime]

Catching up. A few things that hit me:

Actually Pike called the Federation a peace keeping armada (because JJ doesn't really understand words sometimes). And in Into Darkness Scotty asked if this wasn't a job for the military. So in the Kelvin timeline at least there is a military and it is not Starfleet. (I'd be very curious to see them. AND see what their relationship is with the organization with the big armed ships that isn't the military.)

"No money" has been very much embraced by the fans, I think. I hear it ALL the time. (But people totally have property). "Love instructor" has only been heard in the TMP novel.

As Nick Meyer has pointed out, all of Kirk's negotiating is at the point of a very very big gun. Even in Mirror, Mirror the fact the he will not blow away a planet that won't fall in line is in itself a negotiation tactic. The reason he negotiates so hard in TMP is because they are totally outgunned.

The Vulcans in Kirk's time (Sarek) definitely think Starfleet is military.

If NASA was armed AT ALL, let alone as heavily as Starfleet is it would be a serious international indecent to say nothing of a violation of treaty. Even if we said "but they are not military".

We have seen civilian populations in TOS and later Treks. They seem to be unarmed. If Starfleet is armed just because "space is dangerous" then why isn't every ship in Star Trek armed (regardless of being in Starfleet or not)? Especially in a post-scarcity economy where cost would not be an object?

How many civilian ships have we seen that definitely didn't have weapons? What reasons would people have for arming themselves or not arming themselves? Why was the sight of armed starfleet officers such a shock on earth during the dominion war?
What are the 39 steps?

The simple fact is, starfleet is stated to not be the military. It is never referred to as the miltary by anyone actually familiar with starfleet or by anyone not stating that to get some kind of response.
This I suspect is another reason fans stick to that ideal or have a problem with starfleet being described by other fans as military.
It is explicitly stated it is not.
Aside from my other personal opinions, there is no doubt that for many that strict adherence to Canon is a big thing for many fans. Canon says starfleet is not miltary, ergo it is not military.

 

[Tallguy]

Canon says starfleet is not miltary, ergo it is not military.

So the objection is the name. ("Soldier" is OK.) It's not the weaponry, the training, the uniforms, fighting wars, staging blockades, deployment of spies, or destruction of property.

 

[Kor]

To tie all these disparate ideas together, what if Starfleet was an army of love instructors who did what they do for no money?



Kor

 

[Tallguy]

To tie all these disparate ideas together, what if Starfleet was an army of love instructors who did what they do for no money?



Kor

That's a WHOLE different show.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

How many civilian ships have we seen that definitely didn't have weapons? What reasons would people have for arming themselves or not arming themselves? Why was the sight of armed starfleet officers such a shock on earth during the dominion war?
What are the 39 steps?

The simple fact is, starfleet is stated to not be the military. It is never referred to as the miltary by anyone actually familiar with starfleet or by anyone not stating that to get some kind of response.
This I suspect is another reason fans stick to that ideal or have a problem with starfleet being described by other fans as military.
It is explicitly stated it is not.
Aside from my other personal opinions, there is no doubt that for many that strict adherence to Canon is a big thing for many fans. Canon says starfleet is not miltary, ergo it is not military.

It's 'explicitly stated' to 'not be the military' by various Starfleet officers. However, at least a couple of civilian characters (David Marcus springs to mind) have equated Starfleet with the military and I think it's also accurate to say that Starfleet does exercise military power in defence of Federation interests, so it might be more appropriate to call it a reactive self-defense force (ala Japan's Jietai or JSDF) with a primary focus in exploration and humanitarian operations, rather than a military in the Western sense of an organisation tasked with pro-active forwardly aggressive operations.

 

[TheGoodStuff]

I think the few here who have pointed out that absolutely nothing like Starfleet exists today, are on the right track.

They really aren't a military organisation. Of course they have rank/weapons/ships etc but Starfleet is responsible for: First contacts, diplomacy, charting nebulae, studying stars, shipping supplies, evacuations, patrolling...

It is such a vast list of things [that I have only skimmed] that saying "they are military" sounds simplistic to me.

I think also it is a matter of connotation. 'Military' implies war, violence, following orders blindly, imperialism etc which I can imagine Starfleet specifically wanting to shy away from these things [or from appearing to embrace any of these things]. Even if you look at Starfleet ships, particularly Pre-'New Design Initiative' [warships like Akira, Defiant, Steamrunner, Norway classes etc] most of them are woefully ill-equipped to fulfill tactical role. For it's size a Galaxy class ship actually seems weak [and this seems to be established] in comparison to it's rivals [D'Deridex, Galor, Vor'cha] and things like Excelsior's, Oberth's, Miranda's etc are all clearly not really built for combat.

Starfleet seems like a primarily diplomatic & scientific organisation which is also tasked with defence. Even our captains...take Picard & Janeway for instance, one is a diplomat and the other is a scientist...hardly grizzled combat veterans.

 

[J.T.B.]

They really aren't a military organisation. Of course they have rank/weapons/ships etc but Starfleet is responsible for: First contacts, diplomacy, charting nebulae, studying stars, shipping supplies, evacuations, patrolling...

Which are exactly comparable to the kinds of things navies were doing in the late 1800s. I have posted this before, so forgive me if it's redundant, but here is a list of missions that US Navy cruisers were expected to perform, according to the report of the Naval Advisory Board, 1881:

...surveying, deep sea sounding, the protection and advancement of American commerce, exploration, the protection of American life and property endangered by wars between foreign countries, and service in support of American policy in matters where foreign governments are concerned...​

Starfleet seems like a primarily diplomatic & scientific organisation which is also tasked with defence. Even our captains...take Picard & Janeway for instance, one is a diplomat and the other is a scientist...hardly grizzled combat veterans.

Yet the diplomat was chosen to lead a blockade task force in "Redemption" part 2, a very traditional naval function. The officers who led the British Royal Navy in WW1 had no fleet combat experience, if they had seen action it was through things like river gunboats in China or landing parties in Africa.

If the late 19th century US and British navies didn't meet the definition of "military," then I suppose Starfleet wouldn't, either.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I understand that you haven't read it, but, no. The series is basically the story of a naval officer learning the professional ropes and taking on bigger and bigger assignments during a very long war. His ships usually work independently, because that makes for better adventures, and he goes on diplomatic missions a few times, but it's all with the same goal in mind: To put some hurt on the French, the Spanish, or both.

Sounds like the Captain/Admiral Hornblower series might be a worthy download! Beating the living shit out of one's sworn enemies is so satisfying ...

 

[The Wormhole]

in Into Darkness Scotty asked if this wasn't a job for the military. So in the Kelvin timeline at least there is a military and it is not Starfleet.

There's no such reference in STID. Scotty objects to their mission because "Starfleet isn't military" but there's no indication that there is a military. Certainly Beyond indicates all of Earth's militaries (like the MACOs) were disbanded after the Federation was formed.

They really aren't a military organisation. Of course they have rank/weapons/ships etc but Starfleet is responsible for: First contacts, diplomacy, charting nebulae, studying stars, shipping supplies, evacuations, patrolling...

Starfleet isn't responsible for diplomacy, that's the Federation Diplomatic Corps's jurisdiction. All those other things can be done by the military. Hell even Ron Moore's BSG had the military studying stars. Even today, it's common to find militaries doing humanitarian aid, charting, scientific studies and helping out with evacuations. Hell, where I live the military helped out with the clean-up after a hurricane and even helped plow the streets after a serious blizzard one winter. As for patrolling, that's always done by the military, not sure what your point is there.

Even our captains...take Picard & Janeway for instance, one is a diplomat and the other is a scientist...hardly grizzled combat veterans.

Picard has a combat maneuver named after him, and Janeway spoke of her front-line combat experience against the Cardassians.

 

[Tim Walker]

No organization today exactly matches Star Fleet-consider the role of interplanetary exploration.

I think that the bulk of Star Fleet functions in a manner similar to the U.S. Coast Guard. I understand that during peace time the coast guard does civilian law enforcement, takes scientific measurements, rescue, etc. During war time the coast guard is considered part of the navy.

It seems that Star Fleet can function well as a defensive force...then Star Fleet is comparable to Japan's self defense forces.

 

[Anwar]

As Nick Meyer has pointed out, all of Kirk's negotiating is at the point of a very very big gun. Even in Mirror, Mirror the fact the he will not blow away a planet that won't fall in line is in itself a negotiation tactic. The reason he negotiates so hard in TMP is because they are totally outgunned.

The Vulcans in Kirk's time (Sarek) definitely think Starfleet is military.

Keep in mind that during TOS the idea was that the Federation was really the "Earth Federation". It wasn't an actual Multi-Species Cooperative, it was a benign Terran Empire wherein Humans inducted aliens in as weak partners while the Humans were the ones really in charge. The TOS Starfleet was just your typical run of the mill Space Navy.

 

[Shawnster]

If Starfleet = the Coast Guard with (small) arms then it's a Coast Guard whose (small) arms can decimate a planet - General Order 24. It's also a Coast Guard that was responsible for repelling the entire Dominion.

Sounds like the Captain/Admiral Hornblower series might be a worthy download! Beating the living shit out of one's sworn enemies is so satisfying ...

I did this last year. I first saw the A&E Hornblower series back in 1998. Last Year I watched the entire A&E Hornblower Series in order, followed by the Gregory Peck Hornblower movie and finished it off with Master and Commander. Coincidentally this order was completely in chronological order.

 

[section31agent]

Starfleet is like the Japanese Self Defense Forces. They have tanks, fighter planes, warships. But because they are not supposed to be used in offensive operations away from the homeland they don't consider themselves a military organization. Starfleet is supposed to be spending most of its time exploring so they don't call themselves a military organization either. Not saying that Starfleet's logic or Japan's logic makes sense. Just pointing out that there is real life precedent.

But to say the idea started in TNG is not entirely correct. Yes Kirk did admit to the Organians that he is a soldier during the Klingon war. But during peacetime he did not like being called a military commander by Captain Garth. He said he's an explorer. It's similar to O'Brien's reaction when Garak kept calling him a soldier. O'Brien admits to being a soldier during the Cardassian war but in times of peace he's just an engineer.

 

[TheGoodStuff]

There's no such reference in STID. Scotty objects to their mission because "Starfleet isn't military" but there's no indication that there is a military. Certainly Beyond indicates all of Earth's militaries (like the MACOs) were disbanded after the Federation was formed.

Starfleet isn't responsible for diplomacy, that's the Federation Diplomatic Corps's jurisdiction. All those other things can be done by the military. Hell even Ron Moore's BSG had the military studying stars. Even today, it's common to find militaries doing humanitarian aid, charting, scientific studies and helping out with evacuations. Hell, where I live the military helped out with the clean-up after a hurricane and even helped plow the streets after a serious blizzard one winter. As for patrolling, that's always done by the military, not sure what your point is there.

Picard has a combat maneuver named after him, and Janeway spoke of her front-line combat experience against the Cardassians.

Neither of those things is 'military' in the sense implied here though.

Starfleet IS responsible for Diplomacy because it is Starfleet captains who are making first contact and are engaging directly with alien worlds/ships etc. How can you possibly suggest otherwise? They aren't drawing up treaties or engaging in advanced diplomacy but a Starfleet captain is certainly responsible for diplomacy.

Just because Picard has a combat manoeuvre named after him again doesn't mean he is in a military. Starfleet is tasked with defence so combat will be a part of that it doesn't intrinsically mean he is in the militrary because he had a good idea. Again, Janeway has combat experience but so do many, many of the captains in Starfleet we must assume.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Starfleet is tasked with defence so combat will be a part of that it doesn't intrinsically mean he is in the militrary because he had a good idea. Again, Janeway has combat experience but so do many, many of the captains in Starfleet we must assume.

(Bolded for emphasis).

More than anything it is this element that makes me think that by definition Starfleet must be administratively and practically be a military (or at least policing/militia organisation as 'defence of the realm' is (the) key thing that makes something a military/militia) even if politically and by preference they mostly answer to the UFP 'foreign affairs' (named as Dept of the Exterior in Treklit) or 'home affairs' (not named, but presumably Dept of the Interior) departments, outside of wartime (engaging in a mixture of diplomacy/colony support, research and other humanitarian operations.

During wartime (or other declaring 'state of emergences) they would transfer to a Defense role - like the USCG (who report to DHS (>2003) normally, mostly DoT or Treasury previous, but to the DoN during wartime), and would (if needed) be joined by 'member reserve forces' (ala UK TA or US NG) which provide the 'soldiers' that Starfleet (mostly) doesn't need in peacetime (personally I think we should have seen Earth-based reserve forces (with at least a different colored uniform) in Homefront/Paradise Lost rather than Starfleet regulars as this type of deployment seems particularly ill-suited to armory-engineer-security combo as depicted in TNG+.

 

[WebLurker]

In answering the original OP, I think there are a couple of reasons:

1. During the shows, Starfleet is rarely shown operating in a military function, so many viewers don't associate them as such.

2. In the shows and movies themselves, there are many statements and elements against the idea (like Starfleet's origins in ENT, Picard outright saying that Starfleet isn't a military in "Peak Performance" [TNG], and Guinen's statement in "Yesterday's Enterprise" [TNG] that: "This not a ship of war. This is a ship of peace.")

Between those two things, I'm not surprised that many people would disagree. (In fact, I think that Starfleet isn't military, largely on the grounds of point two.)

 

[Tallguy]

Ok, let's say some deranged writer gets on board in Star Trek Discovery and makes Starfleet military. What changes?

 

[Jedi_Master]

To tie all these disparate ideas together, what if Starfleet was an army of love instructors who did what they do for no money?



Kor

This man understands Gene's vision.