If they win all the wars, then their we-don't-call-it-military strength is just fine.
12th power! Oh, myyyyy...
FTFY.
Strongest Power
- Thread starter Worf99
- Start date
If they win all the wars, then their we-don't-call-it-military strength is just fine.
FTFY.
Being the most diplomatic, they're the largest local power. Being science-oriented, they're the most innovative. The Klingons have been space-faring far longer than the humans, but they've only gotten as far as they have (second) because their entire society is based on combat. As time goes ahead, they'll be faster and faster out-paced by the Federation.
Also, as mentioned, after the Dominion War, the order was Federation--Romulans--Klingons, per Sloane's remarks about the Klingons licking their wounds (they went berserk both against the Cardassians, then the Dominion-Cardassian alliance). In my list, I kept the order Federation--Klingon--Romulan, given that Romulus was destroyed by the supernova in ST'09. That might in fact have lowered them below the next closest power. I wonder what their new capital will be...
Also, despite how low I placed them, an argument could be made that the Tholians were always ahead of the Cardassians before the latter's Dominion alliance.
Anyone want to take a stab at where the Orions or Xepolites would fall? The Xepolites have very fast ships and sophisticated sensor-blocking materials. The Orions have been around forever; I imagine them to be ubiquitous in local space, like the Ferengi and maybe the Yridians.
How about the Carnelians? Or others from the Treklit-verse? And how about all those non-humanoid powers just off screen?
(Also, I updated my list. Who else should I include??)
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What about the Enterprise's computer:
> "on the order of one to the fourth power. "
> "on the order of one to the fourth power. "
Where would you place the Saurians? Between 5 and 6 maybe?
I haven't seen the episode in a while, but it's the Voth, right? Do they also call themselves Saurians?
I maybe would place them above or below the Cytherians. Like the Travelers, I don't know that they have the numbers to combat the Borg. The Travelers convert thought to reality, so they may even should be just below the Metrons, but they used the Federation and others to get around, so they're not limitless in their expression of those powers.
The Cytherians don't go out themselves but make others supers-smart and bring others to them in a flash. They must be able to defend themselves ridiculously well. Somewhere above or below these guys are the Voth.
They've been around for a while, dare to hang out in their city ship(s?) in the Delta Quadrant by the Borg, and have some impressive techs, but one wonders if the reason they haven't been assimilated is because they're mobile. They also have your standard small scout ships and individual academics trying to combat the orthodoxies of the well-dressed and fancy-throned ignorant establishment. Hell, after so many millions of years spacefaring, maybe the reason they weren't assimilated is because the Borg didn't want to take in their stunted characteristics. You'd think they'd be Organians or greater by now. Or maybe something happened that delayed their continued growth? Some Dark Age(s) where nuclear war or alien oppressions delayed them.
EDIT: if interested, you may want to search Saurians in Google Images. I just found some interesting "dino people" arts. I wonder what more could have been done with the Voth. Maybe different ships have different races of them in different parts of the galaxy/universe. Maybe some out-evolved others and are energy beings themselves?
I maybe would place them above or below the Cytherians. Like the Travelers, I don't know that they have the numbers to combat the Borg. The Travelers convert thought to reality, so they may even should be just below the Metrons, but they used the Federation and others to get around, so they're not limitless in their expression of those powers.
The Cytherians don't go out themselves but make others supers-smart and bring others to them in a flash. They must be able to defend themselves ridiculously well. Somewhere above or below these guys are the Voth.
They've been around for a while, dare to hang out in their city ship(s?) in the Delta Quadrant by the Borg, and have some impressive techs, but one wonders if the reason they haven't been assimilated is because they're mobile. They also have your standard small scout ships and individual academics trying to combat the orthodoxies of the well-dressed and fancy-throned ignorant establishment. Hell, after so many millions of years spacefaring, maybe the reason they weren't assimilated is because the Borg didn't want to take in their stunted characteristics. You'd think they'd be Organians or greater by now. Or maybe something happened that delayed their continued growth? Some Dark Age(s) where nuclear war or alien oppressions delayed them.
EDIT: if interested, you may want to search Saurians in Google Images. I just found some interesting "dino people" arts. I wonder what more could have been done with the Voth. Maybe different ships have different races of them in different parts of the galaxy/universe. Maybe some out-evolved others and are energy beings themselves?
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Link?
Where do you think Nagilum's people would fit on this list? Those were not trivial things it did with the Enterprise and surrounding space. At least not trivial to a Fed-level tech. What it did was equivalent in scale to what Q did with that giant curtain/shield in Encounter at Farpoint. I am not saying Nagilum is Q level, but what we saw it do could as easily have been demonstrations of Q power.
Which never happened.
Right, Yesterday's Enterprise is a might-have-been. But so is any wargaming scenario/projection made as a matter of course in a military organization, and these are taken into account when predicting the outcome of a military encounter. Yesterday's Enterprise is considerably better than a wargaming scenario, as it is more than a thought experiment--it really happens in one timeline, at least for a "while," if that has any meaning with time travel.
It both bugs me and pleases me that the Feds were losing in this ep. It bugs me that it takes me out of my comfort zone and forces me to contemplate that the most enlightened AQ power, the one I sympathize most with, is not necessarily the strongest, and it pleases me for the same reason.
Journey's End shows us that they don't need a starship to get around. He was on the Enterprise because Wesley was on the Enterprise. Also I think he makes statements that he might be from another time from the Enterprise's point of view. It is clear from the Traveler's statements that we are talking about more than gifts for spatial travel here. With time travel all kinds of bets on power are off. Although if this Tau Ceti native is any indication they are far from warlike.
My take on the Travelers is that they are not all Tau Ceti natives but are themselves a loose "federation"--really a special scientist club--of individuals like the Traveler and Wesley. They probably span many races, many times, and many viewpoints. They're basically us--fans--with powers. Although I'd also bet most are actual scientists.
But they might be very dangerous if they decided to really act in a concerted manner. I imagine them being very slow to take any action, they are free thinkers and an anarchic bunch probably, but when they do they sure have a dangerous brains trust and capabilities to draw on. I see a Travelers "council"--probably more like a scientific conference or symposium, hah maybe on Risa (but that is a little too high profile)--where talks like "cross-quantum entanglement integration across a manifold to erase unwanted Borg branching" or "imposing limitation on Federation expansion through time-juncture wormhole combining--an idea whose time has come?" are common, but maybe sometimes a consensus is reached and they DO something BIG. But they might always be meddling some.
Bit like Marvel's Watchers, less powerful (but still damn dangerous) but alike in temperament. Or Pratchett's History Monks (No Such Order, the Men in Saffron...). Or like...
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...How about Annorax? I guess technically the Krenim, at least for "a while," were unimaginably powerful.
Oh, maybe Annorax was a Traveler! A rogue Traveler...
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Surprised I missed this thread, I get ridiculously into this stuff
Alpha/Beta Quadrant circa 2370
1. Federation
2. Klingon Empire
3. Romulan Star Empire
4. Cardassian Union
5. Breen
6. Tholians
7. Tamarians
8. Sheliak
9. Ferengi
10. Zalkonians (assuming they didn't all evolve)
11. Tzenkethi
12. Gorn
13. Talarians
14. Orions
15. Pakleds
16. Son'a
I don't know of any others that have influence beyond their own system. Tamarians, Sheliak, and Zalkonians could be more powerful, we just don't know.
Top 10 overall, not counting non-corporeal or uber-advanced races from TOS who live on one planet.
1. Species 8472
2. Borg
3. Kelvan Empire
4. Voth
5. Dominion
6. Federation
7. Klingons
8. Romulans
(Krenim Imperium in their dominant timeline would probably go here)
9. Void Aliens from "Night"
10. Cardassians
Alpha/Beta Quadrant circa 2370
1. Federation
2. Klingon Empire
3. Romulan Star Empire
4. Cardassian Union
5. Breen
6. Tholians
7. Tamarians
8. Sheliak
9. Ferengi
10. Zalkonians (assuming they didn't all evolve)
11. Tzenkethi
12. Gorn
13. Talarians
14. Orions
15. Pakleds
16. Son'a
I don't know of any others that have influence beyond their own system. Tamarians, Sheliak, and Zalkonians could be more powerful, we just don't know.
Top 10 overall, not counting non-corporeal or uber-advanced races from TOS who live on one planet.
1. Species 8472
2. Borg
3. Kelvan Empire
4. Voth
5. Dominion
6. Federation
7. Klingons
8. Romulans
(Krenim Imperium in their dominant timeline would probably go here)
9. Void Aliens from "Night"
10. Cardassians
Annorax649,
I dunno; I didn't really get the sense the Breen were that big a deal until they joined the Dominion, at which time they became a scales-tipper. And during the war, the Feds overcame their shield-dampening tech, which seemed to be their strongest threat.
The Talarians fought a war with the Federation pre-TNG...while the Gorn have not been heard from since TOS. They may have even joined the Federation, if Cestus III was reclaimed by the Gorn, and has, by DS9's time, it's own baseball team.
The Pakleds stole their tech from others, but I doubt they could keep up. I imagine they use what they git to take advantage of newer or younger races but aren't much of a threat to established powers. The Son'a, though few, conquered at least two other races, and we don't know what level of tech they kept from their pre-luddite days, but their battleships gave the E-E a run for its money and their collector ship seemed pretty high tech.
I don't remember much about the Void aliens; why are they above the Cardassians on your list?
I dunno; I didn't really get the sense the Breen were that big a deal until they joined the Dominion, at which time they became a scales-tipper. And during the war, the Feds overcame their shield-dampening tech, which seemed to be their strongest threat.
The Talarians fought a war with the Federation pre-TNG...while the Gorn have not been heard from since TOS. They may have even joined the Federation, if Cestus III was reclaimed by the Gorn, and has, by DS9's time, it's own baseball team.
The Pakleds stole their tech from others, but I doubt they could keep up. I imagine they use what they git to take advantage of newer or younger races but aren't much of a threat to established powers. The Son'a, though few, conquered at least two other races, and we don't know what level of tech they kept from their pre-luddite days, but their battleships gave the E-E a run for its money and their collector ship seemed pretty high tech.
I don't remember much about the Void aliens; why are they above the Cardassians on your list?
Strongest power....I only have a top 8
1. Federation
2. Borg
3. Dominion
4. Romulan Star Empire
5.Breen
6. Klingon Empire
7. Cardassian Union
8. Ferengi
1. Federation
2. Borg
3. Dominion
4. Romulan Star Empire
5.Breen
6. Klingon Empire
7. Cardassian Union
8. Ferengi
For years I didn't consider them, but I saw the episode again a few years ago and their ships seemed fairly strong, and I assumed they roamed the entire void, though I might be wrong on that.
The Breen seemed pretty formidable in DS9, just a little below the Cardassians. The Son'a are advanced, but they're population is so small I can't think they're as strong as the others listed. Even the Pakleds were said to control other systems.
EDIT: I also noticed what you said about Talarians and Gorn. They're basically tied for me, and I just work under the assumption that any territorial power from the TOS era is still around. Same reason I included Orions. When is your list set?
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That doesn't follow, diplomacy isn't a determining factor in size. And my impression is that the Klingon Empire is just as large (size, strengths, power) as the Federation, if not larger.
When Admiral Janeway needed a time trivel device, she got from a Klingon. It was a Klingon engineer who figure out a way to defeat the Breen energy damping device. It was the Klingons who figure out how to fire out of a cloaking device. Through intelligence and tactics a small BOP destroyed the Federation flagship.
Somehow I doubt this.
Remember, the Dominion were defeated owing to Section 31 infecting the leadership group with a fatal disease. At which point two Pakleds and a tribble could have forced their surrender.
Once the King is in checkmate, the game is over.
I am curious as to what people might think a full-scale invasion by Sylvia and Korob’s people might be like. How much power did we really see them command, compared, say, to Ardra or Picard himself in Devil’s Due in TNG? Did Sylvia and Korob’s abilities imply, maybe, greater abilities?
And also: Where were they from, anyway? Something like fluidic space for 8472? Or were they more akin say to the Great Race of Yith out of Lovecraft. I favor that, but that just makes them more weird and dangerous, with them emerging from some non-Euclidean insane asylum of a dimension. Or coming out of right angles only from some other, cosmically different time, like the Hounds of Tindalos (that's Long and Derleth, not Lovecraft).
Are they on a par, as a threat (in the case of a full invasion) with the Kelvans, Dominion, neck crawlies from TNG’s Conspiracy, subspace aliens from TNG’s Schisms…
I am not talking about the threat the two of them posed as scouts. I mean if their kind had actually invaded.
I've always been fascinated by those puppets at the end of Catspaw. Yes of course the strings. But. So cool...so alien...face tentacles but then--feathers were a strange and oddball touch too, makes me think of how we have had to rethink the integument of many dinosaurs...adds to the weirdity. And the sounds, so damn alien, unhuman--you just gotta hand it to the old series sometimes, the effects were, in some ways, lightning in a bottle for the time.
And also: Where were they from, anyway? Something like fluidic space for 8472? Or were they more akin say to the Great Race of Yith out of Lovecraft. I favor that, but that just makes them more weird and dangerous, with them emerging from some non-Euclidean insane asylum of a dimension. Or coming out of right angles only from some other, cosmically different time, like the Hounds of Tindalos (that's Long and Derleth, not Lovecraft).
Are they on a par, as a threat (in the case of a full invasion) with the Kelvans, Dominion, neck crawlies from TNG’s Conspiracy, subspace aliens from TNG’s Schisms…
I am not talking about the threat the two of them posed as scouts. I mean if their kind had actually invaded.
I've always been fascinated by those puppets at the end of Catspaw. Yes of course the strings. But. So cool...so alien...face tentacles but then--feathers were a strange and oddball touch too, makes me think of how we have had to rethink the integument of many dinosaurs...adds to the weirdity. And the sounds, so damn alien, unhuman--you just gotta hand it to the old series sometimes, the effects were, in some ways, lightning in a bottle for the time.
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My first impression was "Why isn't 'Sylvia and Korob' in the TOS forum?" Taking a closer look, it seems like this is a spur discussion of the "Strongest Power" thread, so I've moved it there.
I think Yesterday's Enterprise was more a "what would have happened" scenario rather than simply being another typical alternate reality.
The Enterprise C never saved the outpost, so the war happened as a result. It happened on its own.
In a number of scenarios the Klingons conquered the Romulans, and in the real timeline they came close to conquering the Cardassians.
It's not a stretch to say the Klingons may be more militarily powerful than the Fed. It looks to me like they had a huge stockpile of ships, which is why they lasted from one war to the next.
Plus they were on a constant war footing, always ready to fight at a moments notice.
If the Federation is on top, the Klingons can't be far behind them.
I think the Federation is more powerful because they have the sense to not fight all the time. They try to negotiate and diffuse a situation before it gets out of hand.
It may make them look weak, but they get to save their resources, and enjoy prosperity instead of draining them by fighting all the time, unlike the other powers.
The Enterprise C never saved the outpost, so the war happened as a result. It happened on its own.
In a number of scenarios the Klingons conquered the Romulans, and in the real timeline they came close to conquering the Cardassians.
It's not a stretch to say the Klingons may be more militarily powerful than the Fed. It looks to me like they had a huge stockpile of ships, which is why they lasted from one war to the next.
Plus they were on a constant war footing, always ready to fight at a moments notice.
If the Federation is on top, the Klingons can't be far behind them.
I think the Federation is more powerful because they have the sense to not fight all the time. They try to negotiate and diffuse a situation before it gets out of hand.
It may make them look weak, but they get to save their resources, and enjoy prosperity instead of draining them by fighting all the time, unlike the other powers.
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