Scifi with aggressive sexuality

[Zaku]

One that fandom likes to now call a post-scarcity society.

I don't know if it's a post-scarcity society, because, well, in the episode they have a scarcity of dilithium crystals? And then Kirk offers an "equitable price" to the miners? So in this universe, there are goods that people want, and people are ready to pay for those goods. And perhaps you don't well remember the episode, but the three women didn't come from some "post scarcity society".

In the TOS universe the space is something akin to the American frontier. I believe you are mixing with the TNG one.

 

[Kemaiku]

PS Told you I could go on about Buffy. I could probably sit here and dissect 50 episodes and how they relate to the topic of this thread!

I think Buffy is a required part of gender equality studies in higher education in the US at least exactly because of how much Joss has deliberately woven into it, Angel, Firefly and pretty much everything else he's worked on.

It's certainly sparked several lengthy threads on the board already, might be worth looking for a few links.

 

[thestrangequark]

The other thing with Xander is in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered where Cordy breaks up with him and his nice guy slips in. He buys her a valentine's present then she dumps him, he decides he wants her humiliated and has a love spell cast so he can publicly dump her while she's devoted to him. He doesn't do it because he loves her and can't let go, which would be bad enough, he does it because he's petty and spiteful. Yet he's still a 'good guy'.

His response when Giles says he didn't think he was fool enough to do this was 'I'm twice the fool it takes to do this.'

I can't believe I didn't think to bring that episode up -- because it also is a great (if hyperbolic) look at what fun it is not to be constantly sexualized! It starts out lighthearted and funny, he even likes it at first, then it starts to annoy him, then scare him, and then actually put him in danger. Heck, that's the one episode where Willow does exactly what I said she didn't in the earlier post: becomes possessive, blames Cordelia, and gets violent: of course she does so under the influence of a spell, not because society normalized that behavior in girls and taught her it was okay.

So I agree, Xander definitely wasn't a total straight shooter after Buffy turned him down. He had buckets full of masculinity issues, and that was total Nice Guy behavior in that episode. However, in the same episode, he also didn't take advantage of Buffy when he easily could have (and at risk to his own safety -- now there's a whole essay that could be written about the crazy ass power-dynamics of that scene!). And then contrast to how he and Cordelia actually part, when he pays for her prom dress, not to win her. I do think the character probably ought to have faced more consequences for what he did in that episode, but considering 45 minutes to tell a story, the got a hell of a lot about sexual power dynamics in there!

And I still ship Xander and Cordelia. Sigh. In my head they are married and have like, six of the bitchiest kids ever.

Finally, Cordelia -- possibly one of my favorite characters in anything -- has what is definitely one of my favorite lines in anything. When Xander (I think it was) says to her, "Cordelia, have you no shame?" and she says, "What, like shame is something to be proud of?" You tell 'em girl!

Fucking GENIUS.

 

[thestrangequark]

I think Buffy is a required part of gender equality studies in higher education in the US at least exactly because of how much Joss has deliberately woven into it, Angel, Firefly and pretty much everything else he's worked on.

It's certainly sparked several lengthy threads on the board already, might be worth looking for a few links.

Now, here's one of those moments when I stop and rethink all my career choices and am like -- why didn't I do gender studies? I didn't take a single gender studies course! And here I could be professor of Buffy Studies today!

 

[Kemaiku]

That would weird. but awesome on a CV though.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

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Spread beneath my Willow tree, you make me complete.

 

[thestrangequark]

^And that's where everything becomes...complicated.

 

[stardream]

I don't know if it's a post-scarcity society, because, well, in the episode they have a scarcity of dilithium crystals? And the Kirk offers an "equitable price" to the miners? So in this universe, there are goods that people want, and people are ready to pay for those goods. And perhaps you don't well remember the episode, but the three women didn't come from some "post scarcity society".

In the TOS universe the space is something akin to the American frontier. I believe you are mixing with the TNG one.

That was my take on it. Not every place was 'paradise'. If that episode was written today perhaps they would be taking those women some place where they could get an education or learn some kind of skill. If they found a husband along the way...well that would be nice but it wouldn't be the end goal.

 

[Kemaiku]

^And that's where everything becomes...complicated.

Even more so in the comics, where Willow states more than once that she considers her entire heterosexual life to have been a lie to herself for years, being no real feelings for either Xander or Oz.

 

[Zaku]

That was my take on it. Not every place was 'paradise'. If that episode was written today perhaps they would be taking those women some place where they could get an education or learn some kind of skill. If they found a husband along the way...well that would be nice but it wouldn't be the end goal.

Definitely. Still I don't understand why some poster here keeps saying that the concept of not-romantic marriage is intrinsically immoral, like slavery or forced prostitution. Obviously if it is the only option to escape from their situation then it is wrong, but not wrong per se.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

It's not that it is intrinsically immoral or wrong. It's just that for a show that was supposedly the bastion of liberal values it was remarkably backward.

 

[thestrangequark]

Even more so in the comics, where Willow states more than once that she considers her entire heterosexual life to have been a lie to herself for years, being no real feelings for either Xander or Oz.

That kind of makes me sad. I never read the comics, but considering how many young people today consider themselves fluid in regard to sexual identity and/or gender identity I thought perhaps that's where they might have taken her.

Now, Oz! If any guy is struggling with how to treat women, there's an example. If that kid was that cool at 19 can you imagine what kind of man he'd be?

 

[Kemaiku]

That kind of makes me sad. I never read the comics, but considering how many young people today consider themselves fluid in regard to sexual identity and/or gender identity I thought perhaps that's where they might have taken her.

Now, Oz! If any guy is struggling with how to treat women, there's an example. If that kid was that cool at 19 can you imagine what kind of man he'd be?

Well they made Buffy suddenly bisexual for the token hot asian Potential if that...no that doesn't sound any better either.

 

[thestrangequark]

Now I'm kinda glad I never read the comics.

 

[Kemaiku]

Yeah, the whole "Angel and Buffy have sex to reboot the universe" angle for Season 8 that killed both Giles and Ethan was bad enough, but Season 9 just had most of the Potentials die or go evil, having a typical stereotype punk girl obviously be evil and split them all.

That and the Vampire God battle at the center of the Earth was far too WTF, never kept up on Season 10. Joss is still maintaining the stories and considers them canon. That's not great of him but he's getting the money, so meh.

 

[stardream]

It's not that it is intrinsically immoral or wrong. It's just that for a show that was supposedly the bastion of liberal values it was remarkably backward.

Oh I agree with that. I just never got the idea that the women were 'forced' into this arrangement in any way.

 

[Shanndee]

That kind of makes me sad. I never read the comics, but considering how many young people today consider themselves fluid in regard to sexual identity and/or gender identity I thought perhaps that's where they might have taken her.

Now, Oz! If any guy is struggling with how to treat women, there's an example. If that kid was that cool at 19 can you imagine what kind of man he'd be?

Oh, Oz...I loved him so much! I was so sad to lose his presence in the show. He was my favourite male character, and I was bummed to lose an actual nice guy and just be left with Xander's Nice Guy.

(edit to add: No, I guess Spike was my actual favourite male character...but some of that was just a crush. I do like that he became more complex as time went on. But of the actual Scoobie Gang, Oz was the man!)

 

[Zaku]

It's not that it is intrinsically immoral or wrong. It's just that for a show that was supposedly the bastion of liberal values it was remarkably backward.

Yes, like I said, the execution is at least cringeworthy.

Oh I agree with that. I just never got the idea that the women were 'forced' into this arrangement in any way.

Obviously some people have the special edition of the DVD, where you see Mudd dragging the women in shackles and then force them, with a phaser pointed right to their heads, to marry the miners.

 

[stardream]

Yes, like I said, the execution is at least cringeworthy.

Obviously some people have the special edition of the DVD, where you see Mudd dragging the women in shackles and then force them, with a phaser pointed right to their heads, to marry the miners.

Ok. You're right. It's been a LOOOONG time since I've watched that episode so I'll take your word for it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's not that it is intrinsically immoral or wrong. It's just that for a show that was supposedly the bastion of liberal values it was remarkably backward.

Star Trek was often contradictory in it's "message:. Especially where women are concerned. It was very much a product of it's times and the times previous. It borrowed a lot from Western and classical literature. Mudd's Women is a prime example of this. There was little effort to update it to the 1960s and especially the 2260s. I think Elaan of Troyius suffers from a similar problem. Archaic marriage customs in a supposedly enlightened futuristic setting. Then there's Amok Time.