Scifi with aggressive sexuality

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't recall the exact reason, or even whether it was stated explicitly, but Kirk and Mudd both agreed that the subspace marriages were fraudulent. That's not the same issue as whether the wives would eventually split from the miners, say after robbing the men and once their Venus drug supply ran low, but it demonstrates that Mudd was not running a legal operation.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

As I said they more or less admit he is a slaver at one point and no one seems to care.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

At that point of the story Kirk's overriding concern is to get new lithium [sic] crystals for the Enterprise.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Sorry, that was meant to read slaver. But surely that's the point, idealistic federation has no trouble trading women for their energy crystals.

 

[fireproof78]

This thread (shakes head sadly). The trolls keep pushing the buttons of the reasonable people. The reasonable people tear the troll arguments apart point by point. The trolls don't bother to read said rebuttals and continue to spew ignorance.

Well, the reasonable people know the value of the truth that they speak. Society is beginning to hear us, and the scales are slowly beginning to balance. Even if we stop feeding the trolls, our daily actions will lead us closer to real equality. No MRA troll can stop that.

Hopefully the way the entertainment industry represents women will change to illustrate this. Media is starting to depict strong female characters, and that will help normalize the reality of women as strong, independent individuals with agency. Unfortunately SF&F has a long way to go to catch up with other forms of media (and yes, I'm glaring at you again Game of Thrones).

I knew there was a reason I hated GoT.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Two things I've just thought. Someone asked about sci-fi with strong female characters, not wanting to answer for the women in here I didn't say anything but I didn't see it brought up again. Here's some that came to mind.

Orphan Black is full of women, even if half a dozen of them are the same woman. Grows in to a story about sisterhood but it's full of strong, flawed, independent, screwed up, stressed, women who fought for themselves and others. That doesn't mean crappy male characters either.

Once upon a Time is filled with female protagonists, antagonists, heroes, anti-heroes, villains, side characters.

The show that started this thread, Lost Girl.

The other thought was in relation to this idea that some men feel there is a power imbalance to their detriment. Which brings me to Ghostbusters, which I saw for the second time yesterday. There's a scene in particular where they confront the bad guy and he whined about how badly the works treats him and the Ghostbusters try to convince him to not destroy the world, to which his response is to tell them they probably have life so much better than him. Abbey responds "Not really, the world pretty much just dumps on us all the time." And I guess this again brings us to male entitlement, he just assumed his life should be better because he's a man, meanwhile the women are dumped on all the time and just continue to get on with life.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Sorry, that was meant to read slaver. But surely that's the point, idealistic federation has no trouble trading women for their energy crystals.

I'm not debating that. I was just meant, for the benefit of those saying that Mudd was just selling wives, that it was explicitly said in the episode that whatever Mudd was doing, it was illegal. Mudd wasn't legally selling wives, because they flat-out said it was fraudulent.

 

[Zaku]

Perhaps he just hadn't a license or something similar. Except for the Venus drug fraud, I really don't see who are the victim here.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Perhaps he just hadn't a license or something similar. Except for the Venus drug fraud, I really don't see who are the victim here.

The women? Being convinced they need to take an illegal drug to made beautiful then sold as wives on a desolate mining colony because they need to be married and being "homely" means they're not even worth the time of some obnoxious miner?

 

[Awesome Possum]

Two things I've just thought. Someone asked about sci-fi with strong female characters, not wanting to answer for the women in here I didn't say anything but I didn't see it brought up again. Here's some that came to mind.

Orphan Black is full of women, even if half a dozen of them are the same woman. Grows in to a story about sisterhood but it's full of strong, flawed, independent, screwed up, stressed, women who fought for themselves and others. That doesn't mean crappy male characters either.

Once upon a Time is filled with female protagonists, antagonists, heroes, anti-heroes, villains, side characters.

The show that started this thread, Lost Girl.

The other thought was in relation to this idea that some men feel there is a power imbalance to their detriment. Which brings me to Ghostbusters, which I saw for the second time yesterday. There's a scene in particular where they confront the bad guy and he whined about how badly the works treats him and the Ghostbusters try to convince him to not destroy the world, to which his response is to tell them they probably have life so much better than him. Abbey responds "Not really, the world pretty much just dumps on us all the time." And I guess this again brings us to male entitlement, he just assumed his life should be better because he's a man, meanwhile the women are dumped on all the time and just continue to get on with life.

That part actually took me out of the movie. Especially given the reaction it got. The trolls are essentially the villain.

It's also weird that they don't catch a single ghost and Slimer saves the day.

 

[Zaku]

The women? Being convinced they need to take an illegal drug to made beautiful then sold as wives on a desolate mining colony because they need to be married and being "homely" means they're not even worth the time of some obnoxious miner?

And it wasn't so different from, I don't know, a photoshopped picture or cosmetic surgery? Or just well applied make-up?

And from the episode:

MUDD: You see, gentlemen, just as I told you. Three lovely ladies destined for frontier planets to be the companions of lonely men, to supply that warmth of a human touch that's so desperately needed. A wife, a home, a family. Gentlemen, I look upon this work as a sacred public trust. I've devoted me whole life to it.
COMPUTER: Incorrect.
MUDD: Well, I'm about to start devoting my entire life to it.
KIRK: Did these ladies come voluntarily?
MUDD: Well, of course! Now, for example, Ruthie here comes from a pelagic planet, sea ranchers. Magda there from the helium experimental station.
EVE: It's the same story for all of us, Captain. No men. Mine was a farm planet with automated machines for company and two brothers to cook for, mend their clothes, canal mud a foot thick on their boots every time they walked in.
MUDD: Fine, Evie. Fine.
EVE: It's not fine! We've got men willing to be our husbands waiting for us, and you're taking us in the opposite direction! Staring at us Iike we were Saturnius harem girls or something.
MUDD: That's enough, Evie.
KIRK: The only charges are against Mister Mudd. Illegal operation of a vessel. Do you have any defence to offer?
MUDD: Only heaven's own truth, which I've just given you.
KIRK: The hearing is closed. Mister Mudd to be handed over to the legal authorities at our earliest opportunity.
EVE: And what about us? What happens to us? Help us, please. All of us.
KIRK: Miss McHuron, if you don't mind
SCOTT: Our last crystal, sir. It's gone.
SULU: Captain Kirk, engineering section reports our entire life-support system is now on batteries.
KIRK: Mister Spock. Miss McHuron, would you mind. Mister Spock, will you contact the miners on Rigel 12? Notify them that we'll need the lithium crystals immediately upon arrival. (all officers leave)
MUDD: Oh, you beautiful galaxy! Oh, that heavenly universe! Well, girls, lithium miners. Don't you understand? Lonely, isolated, overworked, rich lithium miners! Girls, do you still want husbands, hmm? Evie, you won't be satisfied with a mere ship's captain. I'll get you a man who can buy you a whole planet. Maggie, you're going to be a countess. Ruth, I'll make you a duchess. And I, I'll be running this starship. Captain James Kirk, the next orders you're taking will be given by Harcourt Fenton Mudd!

Captain's log-- Stardate 1330.1. Position, fourteen hours out of Rigel 12. We're on auxiliary impulse engines. Fuel low, barely sufficient to

This is the important quote:
"KIRK: The only charges are against Mister Mudd. Illegal operation of a vessel. Do you have any defence to offer?"

And It didn't seem to me that the women were whoring themselves out. Just searching for a rich husband.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The women? Being convinced they need to take an illegal drug to made beautiful then sold as wives on a desolate mining colony because they need to be married and being "homely" means they're not even worth the time of some obnoxious miner?

Plus this is the Federation. These women obviously came from completely dangerous shitholes without the protection people on earth have to even consider such a thing.

I find it more likely that they got sucked into Mudd's con and were promised some payoff, though are also in debt to him in some way.

 

[BigJake]

The women? Being convinced they need to take an illegal drug to made beautiful then sold as wives on a desolate mining colony because they need to be married and being "homely" means they're not even worth the time of some obnoxious miner?

The bizarre thing is that the supposed "homeliness" the Venus drug was meant to cover up is just... the appearance of perfectly normal women. It's like a crash course in the ridiculous standards promoted by objectification, right there.

 

[Zaku]

Ok I'm a loss here. Mudd was just running a (shady) Marriage Agency. Men offered their money, women their beauty. Yes, it wasn't ideal, but it was their choice. The concept of the Venus Drug isn't different from cosmetic plastic surgery. So what?

EVE: It's the same story for all of us, Captain. No men. Mine was a farm planet with automated machines for company and two brothers to cook for, mend their clothes, canal mud a foot thick on their boots every time they walked in.
MUDD: Fine, Evie. Fine.
EVE: It's not fine! We've got men willing to be our husbands waiting for us, and you're taking us in the opposite direction! Staring at us Iike we were Saturnius harem girls or something.

They even were offended that Kirk and his men thought that the women were prostitutes or similar.

 

[BigJake]

@Zaku Compare and contrast say, Russia or Eastern Europe today, which are the clearest analogues, and have a look at the various "businesses" promoting mail-order bride services therefrom, and I think you should be able to see how icky the premise fundamentally is and how prone it should naturally be to the worst kinds of abuse (even if the original ep skated over that).

 

[Amaris]

Ok I'm a loss here. Mudd was just running a (shady) Marriage Agency. Men offered their money, women their beauty. Yes, it wasn't ideal, but it was their choice. The concept of the Venus Drug it isn't different from cosmetic plastic surgery. So what?



They even were offended that Kirk and his men thought that the women were prostitutes or similar.

It wasn't necessarily their choice. It's clear they were desperate, and that Mudd likely offered them the Venus drug in exchange for something. The Venus drug is illegal, which means scarcity drives up the price unless Mudd is a supplier, and if he's a supplier, then there's no need to go around making sham marriages, because he has a boatload of credits at his disposal from selling the Venus drug for massive profits. More importantly, Rigel XII wasn't their destination, but they took advantage of an opportunity when they heard about "rich miners." So there were no investors, or wealthy lonely singles looking for love that had already called upon Harry for help with long-term companionship.

Clearly, then, Mudd had yet to deliver on his promise, but the girls had been taking the drug while on his ship. Why would they do that if Harry already knows what they look like? Again, unless he's a supplier, getting an illegal drug like the Venus drug would be costly, either in money, influence, or both. How were the girls paying for the drug?

 

[Awesome Possum]

Ok I'm a loss here. Mudd was just running a (shady) Marriage Agency. Men offered their money, women their beauty. Yes, it wasn't ideal, but it was their choice. The concept of the Venus Drug isn't different from cosmetic plastic surgery. So what?



They even were offended that Kirk and his men thought that the women were prostitutes or similar.

They may not consider it prostitution. But it's prostitution. They're agreeing to be with some man they wouldn't normally encounter and in exchange for something, even if its a bad living situation. It's like Dollhouse but less depressing.

 

[Gov Kodos]

The bizarre thing is that the supposed "homeliness" the Venus drug was meant to cover up is just... the appearance of perfectly normal women. It's like a crash course in the ridiculous standards promoted by objectification, right there.

Ok I'm a loss here. Mudd was just running a (shady) Marriage Agency. Men offered their money, women their beauty. Yes, it wasn't ideal, but it was their choice. The concept of the Venus Drug isn't different from cosmetic plastic surgery. So what?



They even were offended that Kirk and his men thought that the women were prostitutes or similar.

One would hope Earth culture had moved past women's role is making men's lives comfortable through not only labor but appearance as well. The show makes Mudd's operation seem their choice, but the tacit reality is that these women have no other use, much less choice, than to be pleasure drones.

 

[Zaku]

They may not consider it prostitution. But it's prostitution. They're agreeing to be with some man they wouldn't normally encounter and in exchange for something, even if its a bad living situation. It's like Dollhouse but less depressing.

I'm sorry, are you really saying that every woman involved in a non-romantic (and obviously not forced) marriage is a prostitute and her husband is a John..?

One would hope Earth culture had moved past women's role is making men's lives comfortable through not only labor but appearance as well. The show makes Mudd's operation seem their choice, but the tacit reality is that these women have no other use, much less choice, than to be pleasure drones.

Yes, but those women weren't living on Earth, but in some backward closed society at the edge of the Guassian curve with no hopes of social mobility, so they chose the simpler way out.

It wasn't necessarily their choice. It's clear they were desperate, and that Mudd likely offered them the Venus drug in exchange for something. The Venus drug is illegal, which means scarcity drives up the price unless Mudd is a supplier, and if he's a supplier, then there's no need to go around making sham marriages, because he has a boatload of credits at his disposal from selling the Venus drug for massive profits. More importantly, Rigel XII wasn't their destination, but they took advantage of an opportunity when they heard about "rich miners." So there were no investors, or wealthy lonely singles looking for love that had already called upon Harry for help with long-term companionship.

Clearly, then, Mudd had yet to deliver on his promise, but the girls had been taking the drug while on his ship. Why would they do that if Harry already knows what they look like? Again, unless he's a supplier, getting an illegal drug like the Venus drug would be costly, either in money, influence, or both. How were the girls paying for the drug?

Obviously everything about the Venus Drug is so wrong that is mind boggling. But people on this thread are offended with all the rest.

@Zaku Compare and contrast say, Russia or Eastern Europe today, which are the clearest analogues, and have a look at the various "businesses" promoting mail-order bride services therefrom, and I think you should be able to see how icky the premise fundamentally is and how prone it should naturally be to the worst kinds of abuse (even if the original ep skated over that).

Obviously the concept of Mail-order bride is often just a cover for human trafficking. But in the show, (at least for this aspect) Mudd is honest. He is really looking for rich husbands for the women. He is not trying to sell them as sex slaves.

 

[Amaris]

...

Obviously everything about the Venus Drug is so wrong that is mind boggling. But people on this thread are offended with all the rest.

...

Well, the Venus drug is what puts it all in context.