Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND

[JKM]

I get so tired hearing about that kind of thing. I agree, I'd rather not have a movie be made of a check list. I can just hear it now, "Okay so we have five men and four women so we need to stick in another woman somewhere." I can only imagine the quality of a movie that would turn out.

 

[RAMA]

http://www.cnet.com/news/star-trek-beyond-review/?ftag=COS-05-10-aa0a&linkId=26628186

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[Maurice]

As for Ghostbusters, while it appears superficially sexist to have four women and one man as the main characters, I will also reserve judgment for after the movie.

Is the original Ghostbusters "superficially sexist" to have four men and one woman as the main characters?

 

[Trekfan12]

http://www.cnet.com/news/star-trek-beyond-review/?ftag=COS-05-10-aa0a&linkId=26628186

Thai theater drinking cups

oh wow that is cool. I want one

 

[TheFlutteringHorde]

http://www.cnet.com/news/star-trek-beyond-review/?ftag=COS-05-10-aa0a&linkId=26628186

Thai theater drinking cups

I wish I could buy every piece of promotional material for this movie. It all looks fantastic.

 

[Malaika]

I think I should stop to read reviews. Some things are exciting and some are disappointing like those who confirmed my doubts about Pegg and the fact that they sidelined Uhura to give more screentime to Mccoy and Scotty. It seems Uhura, Idris and Sulu got the short end of the stick and it's really disappointing. I read someone sarcastically say that Karl Urban got back only if they gave him more screentime for Mccoy and his bromances, and the writers seem to have done that but at Uhura's expense.

That said, I feel like the truth is in the middle because I doubt the female characters really do nothing and I well know how some reviews treat female characters and minimize their scenes. One guy from another board said that Mccoy gets more screentime thank to interacting with Spock but it's not like he has a pivotal role for the story nor we really hear so much about him compared to how his scenes are mostly about Spock issues or his feelings for Uhura. So Pegg might have sidelined Uhura and ignored the trio dynamic JJ had by giving more space to the boys but screentime =/= character development or contribution to the plot. I guess I have to watch and see.

 

[M'Sharak]

The Grading & Discussion thread is now live.

I know most people won't be able to see the movie for at least a few more days, but I've placed links in the thread to a number of the reviews which have already been linked here, and those who attended the preview showings may wish to post reviews there as well.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Grading & Discussion thread is now live.

I know most people won't be able to see the movie for at least a few more days, but I've placed links in the thread to a number of the reviews which have already been linked here, and those who attended the preview showings may wish to post reviews there as well.

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[Pauln6]

I get so tired hearing about that kind of thing. I agree, I'd rather not have a movie be made of a check list. I can just hear it now, "Okay so we have five men and four women so we need to stick in another woman somewhere." I can only imagine the quality of a movie that would turn out.

I think crying foul because the argument is repetitive is quite funny when resolving the issue would end the moaning. Those rolling their eyes are most often men who never even noticed that there was an imbalance in the first place.

I'm talking about sexist casting rather than overt sexism in the characterisation. This includes things like no female security guards or command officers but lots of female nurses etc. You don't really need a checklist, you can flip a coin. There will be many circumstances in which that is not appropriate but Star Trek is probably not one of them. Getting a more diverse racial mix is a whole other argument. I'm only talking about the easy win here.

As far as a checklist goes, I'll judge how it turns out after somebody actually does it. Until then, I'm willing to leave it open as an option. Seems silly to discount it in advance?

Is the original Ghostbusters "superficially sexist" to have four men and one woman as the main characters?

I'm hesitant to say that a movie is sexist because the majority of the main cast is one gender or another. Many buddy movies require an imbalance in the leads, as would a WWII drama or Star Trek where 6 out of the 7 movie characters were traditionally male. You need to look at the wider casting and the way the characters are used. I haven't seen the original Ghostbusters for many years but from memory, Annie Potts' secretary did not get a lot to do and I can't recall there being any female public officials or police officers, so I think it probably was sexist. Given who they have cast as the Secretary in the reboot, I suspect the role will be expanded a bit to even up the balance plus in the reboot, as it's a comedy, they can justify ironic casting to make a point. Will be able to judge that after I've seen it.

 

[BillJ]

As far as a checklist goes, I'll judge how it turns out after somebody actually does it. Until then, I'm willing to leave it open as an option. Seems silly to discount it in advance?

Braga and Moore said they were given a checklist of things that had to be done in Star Trek: Generations. We saw how that turned out.

 

[RAMA]

I think crying foul because the argument is repetitive is quite funny when resolving the issue would end the moaning. Those rolling their eyes are most often men who never even noticed that there was an imbalance in the first place.

I'm talking about sexist casting rather than overt sexism in the characterisation. This includes things like no female security guards or command officers but lots of female nurses etc. You don't really need a checklist, you can flip a coin. There will be many circumstances in which that is not appropriate but Star Trek is probably not one of them. Getting a more diverse racial mix is a whole other argument. I'm only talking about the easy win here.

As far as a checklist goes, I'll judge how it turns out after somebody actually does it. Until then, I'm willing to leave it open as an option. Seems silly to discount it in advance?


I'm hesitant to say that a movie is sexist because the majority of the main cast is one gender or another. Many buddy movies require an imbalance in the leads, as would a WWII drama or Star Trek where 6 out of the 7 movie characters were traditionally male. You need to look at the wider casting and the way the characters are used. I haven't seen the original Ghostbusters for many years but from memory, Annie Potts' secretary did not get a lot to do and I can't recall there being any female public officials or police officers, so I think it probably was sexist. Given who they have cast as the Secretary in the reboot, I suspect the role will be expanded a bit to even up the balance plus in the reboot, as it's a comedy, they can justify ironic casting to make a point. Will be able to judge that after I've seen it.

I daresay most of us didn't notice from episode to episode or movie to movie because the make up of the military and scientists has been mostly men for a long time, and it'll take years for that to change now that women are allowed in combat and more women are going into the sciences. You're going to find a lot of women don't want to go into combat and that will still probably limit numbers.

I'm not saying Hollywood couldn't change that, or writers couldn't extrapolate a future with a 50-50 make up of a crew, but most people, including women won't flinch because it's not the norm.

Let me say I'm not a huge fan of a "checklist" myself. I have never, ever counted the ratio of males to females on the bridge and actually find it an odd thing to do. I tend to see plenty of females in the more modern shows on the bridge and it doesn't seem like a bad ratio.

RAMA

 

[Pauln6]

I'm not saying Hollywood couldn't change that, or writers couldn't extrapolate a future with a 50-50 make up of a crew, but most people, including women won't flinch because it's not the norm.

Let me say I'm not a huge fan of a "checklist" myself. I have never, ever counted the ratio of males to females on the bridge and actually find it an odd thing to do. I tend to see plenty of females in the more modern shows on the bridge and it doesn't seem like a bad ratio.

RAMA

Other shows are doing it far better, including dystopian ones like Battlestar Galactica, Killjoys, and the Expanse. If dystopia is less sexist than the utopian ideal of Star Trek, what does that say about us?

Even TMP, which came the closest to a more balanced crew overall, only had 3 women on bridge duty and 9 men, although Chekov's relief was a woman so it dipped to 4/8 at one point. Still pretty poor.

 

[Jeyl]

Even TMP, which came the closest to a more balanced crew overall, only had 3 women on bridge duty and 9 men, although Chekov's relief was a woman so it dipped to 4/8 at one point. Still pretty poor.

Problem with TMP's female dynamic is that they're never allowed to do their respective job. Rand, who works in the transporter room is quickly pushed aside by Kirk so he can operate the controls. Uhura, despite manning the communications station on the bridge has nothing to do during the one important sequence in the movie where communications plays a factor. That's given to Spock.

You can glitter the ship with diversity all you want but it's not going to mean a whole lot when the diverse don't do anything. Might as well be glorified background decoration.

 

[SalvorHardin]

Even TMP, which came the closest to a more balanced crew overall, only had 3 women on bridge duty and 9 men, although Chekov's relief was a woman so it dipped to 4/8 at one point. Still pretty poor.

There were more than that on the bridge of ST & STID. A few quick STID screenshots I had, I count at least 7:




I'm not saying they can't do better, they definitely can but the JJ films have done a much better job filling the Enterprise with women than they get credit for.

 

[Pauln6]

Problem with TMP's female dynamic is that they're never allowed to do their respective job. Rand, who works in the transporter room is quickly pushed aside by Kirk so he can operate the controls. Uhura, despite manning the communications station on the bridge has nothing to do during the one important sequence in the movie where communications plays a factor. That's given to Spock.

You can glitter the ship with diversity all you want but it's not going to mean a whole lot when the diverse don't do anything. Might as well be glorified background decoration.

Yes but I don't think that stems from sexism - it's long been a symptom of the Big 3, and it's not confined to Uhura either. The Rhaandarite mans the internal security station but it's Chekov who announces the intruder alert. ST09 did a similar thing with Uhura - she speaks fluent Romulan but stays home to monitor frequencies because Spock thinks he can get by due to the similarities between the two languages. The fate of the Earth is at stake here guys! Of course they should both have gone along with McCoy and a security team but that logic was sacrificed on the altar of making it a buddy movie. It only appears sexist because you start from a point where both your main characters are male. If you had female main characters, they'd be stealing male lines from the likes of the Rhaandarite too.

 

[Pauln6]

There were more than that on the bridge of ST & STID. A few quick STID screenshots I had, I count at least 7:

I'm not saying they can't do better, they definitely can but the JJ films have done a much better job filling the Enterprise with women than they get credit for.

It's like counting magpies as the crewmen change from scene to scene! You do get more female 'runners' moving across the screen on errands rather than manning stations I've noticed.

I thought it was ironic that the Kelvin obviously had more men than women and one of the actresses playing an alien was cited as playing another male! I'm all for gender swapping aliens (Arcturian reproduce through cloning so are presumably genderless, Rhaandarite women look identical to the men, and Saurian women have no need for breasts) but where you already have so many men on the bridge, would it really have killed them to let her be a boobless woman? Sigh.

 

[BillJ]

Yes but I don't think that stems from sexism - it's long been a symptom of the Big 3, and it's not confined to Uhura either. The Rhaandarite mans the internal security station but it's Chekov who announces the intruder alert. ST09 did a similar thing with Uhura - she speaks fluent Romulan but stays home to monitor frequencies because Spock thinks he can get by due to the similarities between the two languages. The fate of the Earth is at stake here guys! Of course they should both have gone along with McCoy and a security team but that logic was sacrificed on the altar of making it a buddy movie. It only appears sexist because you start from a point where both your main characters are male. If you had female main characters, they'd be stealing male lines from the likes of the Rhaandarite too.

So the stars are the center of attention? That has been standard operating procedure in every Hollywood production since the dawn of time.

 

[RAMA]

Not so sure about Killjoys, the vast majority of killjoys have been males.

The Expanse has many terrific roles for females, possibly the best of any of the space based shows, though on the other hand, the traditional roles are all there too, too often women exist to be strippers and "escorts".

Brannon Braga and Ron Moore didn't do well with women's roles but mostly it's Moore who can't seem to keep writing women in traditional sex object roles..it started on DS9 and continued onto NuBSG. Women lie, cheat and use sex as a bargaining chip to get their way while men do it more overtly. Most of the female main characters in BSG were written no differently than women in a Sinatra movie from the 60s.

Eh, I would not really use TMP as the best example, because I would be willing to bet that if you counted the number of bridge crew on a random Voyager or DS9 (sometimes STNG) episode--which I am not oding--you'd often get a 50-50 mix.

RAMA

Other shows are doing it far better, including dystopian ones like Battlestar Galactica, Killjoys, and the Expanse. If dystopia is less sexist than the utopian ideal of Star Trek, what does that say about us?

Even TMP, which came the closest to a more balanced crew overall, only had 3 women on bridge duty and 9 men, although Chekov's relief was a woman so it dipped to 4/8 at one point. Still pretty poor.

 

[SalvorHardin]

It's like counting magpies as the crewmen change from scene to scene! You do get more female 'runners' moving across the screen on errands rather than manning stations I've noticed.

Pretty much all the female characters in the screenshots I provided are sitting down, at their own station & don't change from scene to scene.
I didn't bother to count runners on errands.

 

[Pauln6]

Not so sure about Killjoys, the vast majority of killjoys have been males.

The Expanse has many terrific roles for females, possibly the best of any of the space based shows, though on the other hand, the traditional roles are all there too, too often women exist to be strippers and "escorts".

Eh, I would not really use TMP as the best example, because I would be willing to bet that if you counted the number of bridge crew on a random Voyager or DS9 (sometimes STNG) episode--which I am not oding--you'd often get a 50-50 mix.

RAMA

It is tricky to do comparisons between movies and TV shows. I'm sure they occasionally hit the mark. In general, there are twice as many male characters as female in every Star Trek show.

I also just remembered that NuChekov 'does a Kirk' to the female transporter officer in ST09. Unlike Kirk, at least he saved them I suppose lol.

Killjoys seems better than average because the female characters appear in diverse roles, faction leaders, gang bosses, brood mares etc. It also objectifies men and women to a roughly equal degree.

I noticed in the first few episodes of the Expanse that the roles were starting to look divided along gender lines (e.g. hookers vs miners) but they pulled it back somewhat later on with female starship crew, female thugs etc. Probably still more men overall but it shows that it is possible to move in the right direction, The infamous Carol scene in particular does make you question if Star Trek still doesn't get that there is a direction to move in.

Pretty much all the female characters in the screenshots I provided are sitting down, at their own station & don't change from scene to scene.
I didn't bother to count runners on errands.

That's cool then. 7 women isn't bad. How many men though?

EDIT: In those images it seems to be 7/9 albeit Chekov, Spock, and Uhura being absent so 7/10 normally? That's not too bad.

I must admit, I've only watched them twice each and not recently. In most of the close ups of the stations there seem to be more men on average. It may just be the camera angles. Still, progress is progress.

Of course, I have yet to see the new movie. I'm sure Jaylah is going to be a refreshing female character. I will judge it on balance obviously.