Spoilers Sleepy Hollow Season 4

[Christopher]

I thought the whole series was going to be this apocolyptic storyline with Moloch, and there are tons of other demons, and figured we would be getting a hierchy of evil with 4 horsemen, and each season would build on a bigger storyline, like a different take on what Supernatural did. The first season's twists were well done and organically laced together. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like they ever had more then 1 year of stories in mind....

As I recall, they didn't get rid of Moloch until midway through season 2. I wonder if that was a change imposed by network meddling, like how Alias abruptly wrapped up its defining SD-6 arc midway through its second season, flailed around for the rest of the season, rebooted with a new story arc that defined season 3, then wrapped that up and re-rebooted in season 4 with the characters joining a new organization. Wow, that's uncannily similar in some ways -- although Alias at least kept most of its cast intact from season to season.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Been a long time since I've seen a show jump so many sharks in one go.

They're making so many changes to Sleepy Hollow that I feel like they should treat the series going forward as a spin-off and change the series' name altogether.

 

[Christopher]

They're making so many changes to Sleepy Hollow that I feel like they should treat the series going forward as a spin-off and change the series' name altogether.

D.C. Hollow!

 

[Phoenix219]

This isn't a show I've ever looked too deeply into; i love supernatural/horror and i am a huge fan of time travel / fish out of water stories, plus Noble is fantastic in just about anything. I don't go to forums or read about the behind the scenes... so.... what is the off screen politics concerning abby? there were already fans during season 2 complaining about katrina getting airtime and taking away from the sisters.... how did the second half of S3 even happen, and why DID they replace their lead? And if they were going to do it, why even bother with bringing her back, after they had a replacement penned in, only to kill her again anyways? This season meandered so much, I completely lost track and am just now finishing the season.

 

[Christopher]

..plus Noble is fantastic in just about anything...

I think this show may be the one that proves the "just about" part of that. He was pretty good at first, but in season 2 he wasn't given much to work with.

I don't go to forums or read about the behind the scenes... so.... what is the off screen politics concerning abby? there were already fans during season 2 complaining about katrina getting airtime and taking away from the sisters.... how did the second half of S3 even happen, and why DID they replace their lead?

Depends on whom you ask, but it's been alleged there was an effort to push aside the African-American leads (not to mention John Cho) in favor of emphasizing white characters more -- which is certainly the impression I got.

And if they were going to do it, why even bother with bringing her back, after they had a replacement penned in, only to kill her again anyways?

What I gather is that Beharie wanted to leave because of how she felt she was being treated, so they set up a storyline that would write her out and replace her with Sophie, but then she decided to stick around after all, so they wrote her back in, but she still wasn't happy and finally decided to go, so they had to write her back out.

 

[Phoenix219]

Abby and Ichabod were always the leads, and their bond was always emphasized to a ridiculous place, and their importance as witnesses... writing her out destroys the fabric of what came before completely. I never got any impression of racism in any form, and the family threads of katrina, ichabod and their son were sewn in season 1. i never understood people complaining about that, and in the end, the show DID pander to the shippers by turning katrina irredeemably evil and returning to the status quo. So the show was derailed because the female lead is unprofessional and indecisive. awesome.

 

[Christopher]

I never got any impression of racism in any form...

The people who aren't affected by racism rarely notice it. That's exactly why it's so hard to get rid of. And a lot of viewers and critics did notice it and comment on it, myself among them. Many fans felt that Beharie was reduced to a supporting role in a show where she was supposed to be an equal lead.

So the show was derailed because the female lead is unprofessional and indecisive. awesome.

That's an absolute falsehood. Beharie had been trying to get out of the show since before the end of season 2, and the producers introduced characters like Sophie and Pandora to pave the way for her departure, which was supposed to occur at midseason. But then it was the producers who changed their minds about letting her leave. They only have themselves to blame for the clumsy plotting that led to Abbie making two heroic sacrifices in a single season.

 

[bigdaddy]

I thought the whole series was going to be this apocolyptic storyline with Moloch, and there are tons of other demons, and figured we would be getting a hierchy of evil with 4 horsemen, and each season would build on a bigger storyline, like a different take on what Supernatural did. The first season's twists were well done and organically laced together. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like they ever had more then 1 year of stories in mind....

I agree and that was the problem. I think a new show runner came in in season 2 and made a mess of everything. But the show should have been mainly about fighting the four horsemen and that leading to a bigger and bigger threat every season until season 7 () they finally beat them once and for all.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Maybe they can move Gotham to Miami next season?

 

[Christopher]

I agree and that was the problem. I think a new show runner came in in season 2 and made a mess of everything.

That was what I thought, but from what I could find, both seasons 1 & 2 had the same showrunner.

 

[bigdaddy]

That was what I thought, but from what I could find, both seasons 1 & 2 had the same showrunner.

I thought the first season the show runner from season 2 was a co-showrunner with someone who left. But I'm probably completely wrong.

 

[Christopher]

I thought the first season the show runner from season 2 was a co-showrunner with someone who left. But I'm probably completely wrong.

That might be, but I'm not sure.

 

[Phoenix219]

What I gather is that Beharie wanted to leave because of how she felt she was being treated, so they set up a storyline that would write her out and replace her with Sophie, but then she decided to stick around after all, so they wrote her back in, but she still wasn't happy and finally decided to go, so they had to write her back out.

That's an absolute falsehood. Beharie had been trying to get out of the show since before the end of season 2, and the producers introduced characters like Sophie and Pandora to pave the way for her departure, which was supposed to occur at midseason. But then it was the producers who changed their minds about letting her leave. They only have themselves to blame for the clumsy plotting that led to Abbie making two heroic sacrifices in a single season.

It may have just been miscommunication, but you completely contradict yourselves between those two posts on who's decision it was. If, as your first statement said, it was her desire to leave, with her deciding to stick around after all, then yes, it would have been her own unprofessionalism at work there. She is an actor, not a showrunner. The idea that her character was ever a supporting role is laughable. I watched 2 and a half seasons of it, and while at times the cast was used as an ensembal, it always came back to Abby and Ichabad, even at the expense of Ichabad's own backstory and family. It seems like this is yet another example of a show's own fanbase destroying their own show.

 

[Christopher]

It may have just been miscommunication, but you completely contradict yourselves between those two posts on who's decision it was.

Yes, I do contradict myself. I was reporting from memory in the first post and got it wrong. In the second post, I actually did some research to confirm what was actually reported. Here are my sources:

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/sleepy-hollow-nicole-beharie-abbie-dead-killed-1201749574/

Original plans called for Beharie’s character to be killed off in the Season 3 midseason finale, though the network backed away from the plan, deciding to finish out the season with the star

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/sleepy-hollow-nicole-beharie-exits-882206

Sources tell THR that Beharie had been unhappy and actively was trying to exit the series for quite some time. The character, sources say, originally was supposed to be killed off during the midseason finale, but insiders are said to have gotten cold feet.

I apologize for not making this clearer in my previous post.

It seems like this is yet another example of a show's own fanbase destroying their own show.

I don't think that's justified. The show has been written in a dissatisfying and problematical way since season 2. Its storylines have meandered, it lost the fun and wild energy of season 1, and it's devoted excessive focus to characters that were weakly acted and less interesting than the core cast, e.g. Katrina and Hawley in season 2 and the singularly useless, dreadfully acted Betsy Ross in season 3. It had, in Nicole Beharie, one of the most amazing, gifted, classy, and beautiful lead actresses in television and treated her in a way that left her frustrated and eager to leave, which can hardly be blamed on the fans.

 

[JD]

I think there have been stories about the racism on the part of SH's producers going all the way back to Orlando Jones leaving after Season 2. Wasn't he pretty vocal about he felt he was being treated?
I honestly hadn't noticed a lot of that until I started hearing about it on here, but you can see what people are talking about if you look.

 

[Christopher]

I think there have been stories about the racism on the part of SH's producers going all the way back to Orlando Jones leaving after Season 2. Wasn't he pretty vocal about he felt he was being treated?

I wasn't able to find anything like that in a quick search. He posted a video Q&A in which he said he was asked to leave by the producers because they had a new direction in mind that didn't involve him, but he wasn't openly accusatory of them or anything. Actually it looks like his season-1 comments were quite positive about the show, though it wasn't until season 2 that the problems began to emerge. I get the impression that it was more the media reporting on the show that were marginalizing its black cast members while the showrunners were taking inclusiveness for granted. What I suspect happened is that the network put pressure on the showrunners to add more white characters in subsequent seasons.

Although it seems that neither Beharie nor Jones was asked to contribute to the DVD commentaries, which is rather questionable right there. But I imagine that decision would lie with the producers of the DVD set rather than the producers of the show itself.

I honestly hadn't noticed a lot of that until I started hearing about it on here, but you can see what people are talking about if you look.

The thing privileged people often don't understand is that there's more to racism than the obvious, overt stuff. Some of it is just a subtle pattern of marginalization, like choosing to shift the emphasis away from lead characters like Abbie and Irving and toward a bunch of new white characters -- including ones like Hawley and Betsy who really, really were not interesting enough to warrant the attention they got. And that's the really insidious kind of racism, because you can fall into the habit of doing it without even realizing or intending it. But the people who are being marginalized or rendered invisible by it can't help but be aware of it.

 

[JD]

Maybe I was mistaken about Orlando Jones then. I just thought I remembered him saying something about being frustrated by the way he was treated after he left.
The comments were after he left, not the treatment he was commenting on.

 

[Phoenix219]

I spent some time last night looking up articles and reading comments, and there seems to be a major divide in the fanbase. There are some that insist she has wanted out since the end of season 1, regardless of how popular it was, and that everything that has happened since then, including the shifting of character focus, lack of Con appearances and commentary tracks, etc, has been a result of her wanting to leave, while under a 5 year contract. Obviously the network would want to try to keep her there to build on the S1 success, but it just hit a breaking point where they had to let her go. I can imagine having to retool on the fly wasn't the easiest, hence the appearance of weak writing the last couple years.

Until something more concrete comes out, I'm going to refrain from further speculation, especially anything with the suggestion of racism, based on purely outside speculation. There is no way of knowing which issue caused the other (her wanting to leave causing conflict on the set, or conflict on the set causing her to want to leave.)

 

[Tom Hendricks]

I liked the character of Katrina, when she was in purgatory. Doling out information here or there, being used just enough to keep the spark between Ichabod and her. Katrina should have sacrificed herself for both Ichabod and Abby, saving the Witnesses and Sleepy Hollow in the process. This would have allowed Ichabod to move on and giving Katrina a true heroic ending.

 

[JD]

I actually liked the first couple episodes with Katrina in the present. With Ichabod becoming more comfortable in the present, it would have been fun to them have him teaching Katrina how to live there. It went off the rails after a while, but I don't think there was anything wrong with the idea of bringing her into the present.