Religion and Star Trek

[fireproof78]

Well, as an atheist friend once commented on he actually appreciated the fact that Christians were more earnest about sharing. His thought, that I find wonderfully prescient, is that if you truly believe people are going to a place of eternal torment, why wouldn't you tell them?

 

[BillJ]

It is interesting, and I think many groups have this. But if you believe you are right and someone else is wrong. Then you aren't going to feel bad about proving to that person that you are right. In fact, in the case of Christianity It could be more akin to believing that if someone was about to walk off a cliff, of course you would try to help them. Even if they didn't want you to. So while from an outsider perspective it may seem hypocritical, but from in insider's perspective it is the only logical way to proceed. It really does depend on the point of view.

The running theme from Christians is that they are a persecuted class in this country, yet have no problems persecuting folks that don't believe in the things they do. It is sickening that they try to play the persecution card when they make up roughly sixty percent of our population and even more control government positions. It is just another case of Christians being openly dishonest in an attempt to get their way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_United_States

 

[uniderth]

The running theme from Christians is that they are a persecuted class in this country, yet have no problems persecuting folks that don't believe in the things they do. It is sickening that they try to play the persecution card when they make up roughly sixty percent of our population and even more control government positions. It is just another case of Christians being openly dishonest in an attempt to get their way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_United_States

I agree. But It's not even limited to Christianity. Any minority group is going to feel persecuted until they come to power and become the majority, then they inevitably end up being the ones doing the persecuting. All the while saying that any opposition is persecution. Its the same story throughout human history.

From my own experience, I find that some people consider themselves persecuted even when encountering simple verbal disagreement.

 

[Phoenix219]

For the record, I am not religious. I actually have some pretty different beliefs, myself, about what our ancestors could have witnessed to inspire ancient myths, legends and religions. I can understand why some people are comforted by the thought of something greater, and I understand why some people can't see past the surface layer of mythology. Regardless, I will defend the rights of all humans to live according to their beliefs, and speak their minds. Those who disagree have every right to speak their mind as well. Just don't hide behind a hypocritical "tolerance" defense - its your right to dislike whatever u want to dislike. Just own it and whatever comes with it.

That's only if you let them in!

Exactly; Just decline and keep 'em moving. No more annoying then kids selling candy, and no more of a reason to listen to them. They shouldn't have to stop their attempts, any more then you should have to let them in.

Because what goes on in my house, and how or if I chose to worship is my business. I understand they are from the building with the big "t" on top, if I want to know about Jesus, I know where to look.

But the thing that is irritating is the total disconnect Christians have. They constantly claim they are being marginalized and that they are having agendas shoved down their throat, when they are doing the very thing they are accusing others of. Either they don't see the hypocrisy or they are intellectually dishonest. Neither speaks well of them from my point of view.

Other points of view don't see their own hypocrisy, or don't care, either. That statement is not just true of Christians, but for a whoooole lot of groups that may or may not have agendas. Their claims are not untrue. Some groups are practically immune to ridicule (South Park has addressed this very well, and ironically gained real life death threats at even the suggestion of mocking certain groups) while others are openly mocked by those who disagree. There are definitely groups of people that if you make one wrong comment about them, you can lose your livelihood, your career, your reputation, while other groups are completely able to be targetted as a punchline constantly. The disconnect goes both ways..... not just Christian groups are guilty of this one, thats for sure.

 

[BillJ]

Any minority group is going to feel persecuted until they come to power and become the majority, then they inevitably end up being the ones doing the persecuting.

Yeah, I agree. But Christians have always been the majority here in the US.

 

[AdmiralBruno]

I seem to remember Dr Phlox saying at some point that he had visited a Catholic mass at St. Petersburg? Presumably their must still be Catholics around in the Enterprise Era.


We hear so little about civilian ships in Star Trek. It’s possible that there may have been a missionary ship or a faith inspired humanitarian vessel at some point separate to Starfleet. I would bet The Salvation Army had one and called it the 'USS William Booth' and that YWAM had a fleet of medical ships

Catholic, not Orthodox? Ain't a whole lot of Catholics in Russia.

 

[fireproof78]

Exactly; Just decline and keep 'em moving. No more annoying then kids selling candy, and no more of a reason to listen to them. They shouldn't have to stop their attempts, any more then you should have to let them in.




Other points of view don't see their own hypocrisy, or don't care, either. That statement is not just true of Christians, but for a whoooole lot of groups that may or may not have agendas. Their claims are not untrue. Some groups are practically immune to ridicule (South Park has addressed this very well, and ironically gained real life death threats at even the suggestion of mocking certain groups) while others are openly mocked by those who disagree. There are definitely groups of people that if you make one wrong comment about them, you can lose your livelihood, your career, your reputation, while other groups are completely able to be targetted as a punchline constantly. The disconnect goes both ways..... not just Christian groups are guilty of this one, thats for sure.

Well written.

Also, to attempt to take this back to the original topic, I really don't mind religion being a private thing in the Federation. I just don't see it not being present either, or that smaller missionary groups might go out and work among alien groups.

Catholic Charities...in Space!

 

[uniderth]

Catholic Charities...in Space!

The Salvation Starfleet

 

[Nerys Myk]

I would say that the militant Leftist and Atheists (though I am sure that there are more, I have a friend who's adamant about Judaism and hates Christianity) can sometimes proselytize their beliefs too.

If you're an Atheist and proselytizing, you might be doing it wrong.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I see this thread becoming less about religion in Trek and more about religion in general. Rather than try to reign in the conversation, which isn't a bad thing in itself, I think it's time to move the thread to Miscellaneous.

Liked for Kate.

 

[Shawnster]

I agree. But It's not even limited to Christianity. Any minority group is going to feel persecuted until they come to power and become the majority, then they inevitably end up being the ones doing the persecuting. All the while saying that any opposition is persecution. Its the same story throughout human history.

From my own experience, I find that some people consider themselves persecuted even when encountering simple verbal disagreement.

An example is the painting with the same brush everyone that claims to be Christian. Look at all the negative Christian comments in this topic - they all lump all those claiming to be Christian together. The reality is far different. Some are nominal Christians, others are evangelical "bible thumpers" and others are in-between. Westboro Baptist Church claims to be "Christian" but, as a Christian, I can tell you that their actions are not found in any Bible I've read.

I think it's funny that some people who are so adamant that we don't paint all of Islam or all Muslims or all the Middle East with the same brush are more than willing to immediately paint everyone who claims to be Christian with that same brush. We're not all "Westboro Baptist" nor are we all "Sheldon Cooper's mother."

As a Christian that goes door-to-door, it'd be nice to sit on your furniture. I can't remember the last time I've been invited into anyone's home.

There is another thing that I find funny. I go to a door of a house that is flying the United States flag. The householder asks me "what gives me the right to knock on his door." I politely leave without getting into any confrontation. I would love to, however, point at that flag and say "that's what gives me the right." Every US citizen (and non citizen, for that matter) has the right to visit their neighbors and have a conversation. It's called freedom of speech, and it's protected by the US Constitution. In fact, my people have gone to court to uphold that right so that all US citizens continue to have the right of free speech.

It's an interesting reaction some people have. They tolerate that salesman that knocks on their door even though he might be selling something that doesn't work. They tolerate everyone that knocks on their door asking for money for one cause or another, even though that cause might not be the best cause to support or that politician may not be the best one to vote for. Yet if someone mentions religion they are "shoving it down their throat. What right do they have?"

I understand the animosity. Christendom has a terrible track record historically. When there are numerous examples of missionaries preaching hellfire and brimstone to the natives, forcing them to convert or die, and then fleecing the flock of their money through the ages, it's no wonder people have been turned off by religion. However, that's like rejecting all the Federation because someone had a bad experience with Humans or Vulcans. Imagine some species rejecting to have any dealings with the Federation because they allowed the Klingons or Naussicans to join/alliance with.

If you're an Atheist and proselytizing, you might be doing it wrong.

There appear to be atheists that disagree: https://www.google.com/search?q=ath...ouDNAhXMQCYKHQz2Dm8Q_AUICSgC&biw=1366&bih=643

and

http://www.atheists.org/

STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS

American Atheists fights to protect the absolute separation of religion from government and raise the profile of atheism in the public discourse.

Since 1963, American Atheists has been taking the principled and uncompromising position that our government should give no special treatment or preference to religious belief. Through lawsuits, innovative public relations campaigns, and education, we are working to normalize atheism and allow more and more people to set aside religious belief and superstition.

"Innovative public relations campaigns..." sounds like proselytizing to me.

 

[Shawnster]

I'm tolerant of facts, not bullshit.

Who decides what is fact and what is bullshit? You? Science? Are these really the best barometers?

300 years ago science and the top learned medical minds of the time thought it was wise to bleed sick people. Have to get the bad blood out of them. That was considered "fact" at the time and if anyone suggested that bleeding and using leeches was actually unhealthy and doing harm, that would have been considered "bullshit."

Facts change based upon the evidence presented. However, it takes an open mind to consider new evidence. If someone is already predisposed into believing the bearer of the information is full of bullshit, then he won't even be open to considering the evidence.

I've met a few people that claim to be open minded and pride themselves on being able to "have a conversation." However, instead of listening to what I have to say, they are thinking about their next objection or zinger or whatever it is they want to say. For these ones, they feel they know the facts and aren't really interested in listening to what they consider bullshit.

 

[Nerys Myk]

There appear to be atheists that disagree: https://www.google.com/search?q=ath...ouDNAhXMQCYKHQz2Dm8Q_AUICSgC&biw=1366&bih=643

and

http://www.atheists.org/

"Innovative public relations campaigns..." sounds like proselytizing to me.

Sounds like doing it wrong to me. Especially the billboards.
But there is a difference between making sure an atheist's rights are respected and proselytizing .

 

[BillJ]

There is another thing that I find funny. I go to a door of a house that is flying the United States flag. The householder asks me "what gives me the right to knock on his door." I politely leave without getting into any confrontation. I would love to, however, point at that flag and say "that's what gives me the right." Every US citizen (and non citizen, for that matter) has the right to visit their neighbors and have a conversation. It's called freedom of speech, and it's protected by the US Constitution. In fact, my people have gone to court to uphold that right so that all US citizens continue to have the right of free speech.

So trespassing is a right? Because that is what it is called when you go onto property you aren't invited to be on. Trespassing is not free speech.

300 years ago science and the top learned medical minds of the time thought it was wise to bleed sick people. Have to get the bad blood out of them. That was considered "fact" at the time and if anyone suggested that bleeding and using leeches was actually unhealthy and doing harm, that would have been considered "bullshit."

But those weren't facts. There was nothing to back up the notion that bloodletting was healthy.

 

[uniderth]

An example is the painting with the same brush everyone that claims to be Christian. Look at all the negative Christian comments in this topic - they all lump all those claiming to be Christian together. The reality is far different. Some are nominal Christians, others are evangelical "bible thumpers" and others are in-between. Westboro Baptist Church claims to be "Christian" but, as a Christian, I can tell you that their actions are not found in any Bible I've read.

Agreed.

As a Christian that goes door-to-door, it'd be nice to sit on your furniture. I can't remember the last time I've been invited into anyone's home.

Feel free to come by. I went door-to-door as a Mormon missionary for two years so I know what it feels like. I'm willing to entertain anyone interested in a friendly discussion.

Christendom has a terrible track record historically.

They're not alone.

So trespassing is a right? Because that is what it is called when you go onto property you aren't invited to be on. Trespassing is not free speech.

However the common form of greeting is knocking on a door. That involved entering the property. Post a No Trespassing sign and you'll have fewer issues.

 

[JeffinOakland]

No great surprise that the religious don't see the big deal in converting the galaxy and the nonreligious aren't particularly keen on the idea.

 

[Philip Guyott]

As a Christian that goes door-to-door, it'd be nice to sit on your furniture. I can't remember the last time I've been invited into anyone's home.

Perhaps its time to consider a more effective form of evangelism?

 

[2takesfrakes]

Liked for Kate.

Haha! Yes, indeed. Thank you, sir.

 

[BillJ]

I used to be much more neutral on religion. But over the last twenty years, I've seen so much hate and the seemingly gleeful drive to deny rights to people that it really soured me on it. It doesn't help that Falwell and Robertson are the faces on mainstream Christianity.

 

[stardream]

No great surprise that the religious don't see the big deal in converting the galaxy and the nonreligious aren't particularly keen on the idea.

Not all of us. Read my earlier post.

Falwell and Robertson are the faces on mainstream Christianity.

They are the founders of the movement we call the Religious Right. They are the ones who organized a political movement in the 70s by using the already existing network of churches to form their 'grass roots'. They used religion as a cover and their theology has major differences from historic Christianity.