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"You were too young to remember" (Comics and sliding time)

Point being is that Johnny and Ben might have been "remade" younger by Franklin's reality building powers when he created the new 616, but Reed and Sue are still the same as from the original 616.

Oh.

She was married to Doom for 8 years, +20 years of fake memories about being in love with him since they first met. I wonder if Doom fixed, altered or upgraded Susan in any way to Stepford her for Doom?

"Reed my feet are two sizes smaller than they should be. Couldn't Victor sleep with me when I had my regular sized feet? What an asshole."

Byrne (in the 80s) said Sue was 10 years(ish) younger than Reed, where as an 11 year old she decided to marry the goofy college kid renting a room from her parents some day. Without explanation, 2 years ago, a writer claimed that they were the age and that Sue was also a scientist with a Doctorate.

+ 8 years in Secret Wars, and Susan is robbing the cradle to stay married to her boo.

(Although if Franklin and Valeria never aged, maybe Sue didn't either?)
 
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On the DC side I would cut the JSA loose from the 40s and WWII. Make them the previous generation of heroes, currently in their 40s and 50s, who retired but became semi active when the new generation arose. Or place them on an Earth 2 that is currently in the 40s and keep them in their prime. ( which means losing Power Girl)

I prefer the JSA be set on their own Earth. Removed from the Justice Leagues (America, International, Dark, United), Teen Titans and Young Justice teams. Keep the 40s apart of the JSA, and keep the Earth 2 timeline 30-40 years behind the time line of Earth 1. That way you can have the original JSA and second generation heroes of Earth 2 (Power Girl, Huntress, Silver Scarab, Star Girl and others).
 
Point being is that Johnny and Ben might have been "remade" younger by Franklin's reality building powers when he created the new 616, but Reed and Sue are still the same as from the original 616.

Oh.

She was married to Doom for 8 years, +20 years of fake memories about being in love with him since they first met. I wonder if Doom fixed, altered or upgraded Susan in any way to Stepford her for Doom?

"Reed my feet are two sizes smaller than they should be. Couldn't Victor sleep with me when I had my regular sized feet? What an asshole."
Lets just pretend that was a bad dream.
 
I prefer the JSA be set on their own Earth. Removed from the Justice Leagues (America, International, Dark, United), Teen Titans and Young Justice teams. Keep the 40s apart of the JSA, and keep the Earth 2 timeline 30-40 years behind the time line of Earth 1. That way you can have the original JSA and second generation heroes of Earth 2 (Power Girl, Huntress, Silver Scarab, Star Girl and others).
That works for me.
 
The Champions (Hercules, Ghost Rider, Black Widow, etc) met Jimmy Carter back in the seventies. In a Champions retro-special that came out about 5 years ago, talking about their adventures back in the past, they met Bill Clinton who was President.
 
The Champions (Hercules, Ghost Rider, Black Widow, etc) met Jimmy Carter back in the seventies. In a Champions retro-special that came out about 5 years ago, talking about their adventures back in the past, they met Bill Clinton who was President.
Soon it will Barack Obama, who will be the only President on the sliding scale for most of the previous decade
 
Soon it will Barack Obama, who will be the only President on the sliding scale for most of the previous decade


Mark Waid did a series where he updated Cap's arrival in the modern era and Obama. He also do an interesting thing where for a single issue he made Clinton what it actually is today rather some weird stuck in the 1970s place - it went back to being Hell's Kitchen in the next issue.
 
On the DC side I would cut the JSA loose from the 40s and WWII. Make them the previous generation of heroes, currently in their 40s and 50s, who retired but became semi active when the new generation arose. Or place them on an Earth 2 that is currently in the 40s and keep them in their prime. ( which means losing Power Girl)

I totally disagree. The JSA are the premiere WW2 heroes. I love both the WW2 generation and the newer generation (aka Mr. terrific 2, Star Girl, etc). I like it as a legacy team with some very old heroes and some younger heroes. The JSA and Justice Society of America books were pretty much perfect, and they're the reason that the JSA is my favorite hero team.

The original Earth 2 JSA (aka the 70s version on Earth 2, which is close to what you want) was ok, but probably the weakest of the JSA incarnations pre-New 52. They've been WW2 in every incarnation (yes, even when they reappeared in the 60s they were still WW2 heroes) until the New 52, and to me its a core part of the group. Taking them out of WW2 is like taking Captain America out of WW2. If you do it, its not the same team or characters anymore. Its one of the reasons that the New 52's Earth 2 Society is complete garbage. A lot of old JSA names attached to terrible, under developed characters (half of which are villains for absolutely no reason, like the rebooted Hourman and Obsidian). I'm hoping that having a WW2 aged Johnny Thunder (who obviously was part of the JSA) on the main Earth means we'll get the WW2 JSA back on the main Earth soon. I really want to see characters like Alan Scott, Doctor Fate, Jay Garrick, Wildcat, Sandman, Hour-man, etc back in their full awesomeness, and not just be names attached to stupid characters in a bad comic.
 
I totally disagree. The JSA are the premiere WW2 heroes. I love both the WW2 generation and the newer generation (aka Mr. terrific 2, Star Girl, etc). I like it as a legacy team with some very old heroes and some younger heroes. The JSA and Justice Society of America books were pretty much perfect, and they're the reason that the JSA is my favorite hero team.

The original Earth 2 JSA (aka the 70s version on Earth 2, which is close to what you want) was ok, but probably the weakest of the JSA incarnations pre-New 52. They've been WW2 in every incarnation (yes, even when they reappeared in the 60s they were still WW2 heroes) until the New 52, and to me its a core part of the group. Taking them out of WW2 is like taking Captain America out of WW2. If you do it, its not the same team or characters anymore. Its one of the reasons that the New 52's Earth 2 Society is complete garbage. A lot of old JSA names attached to terrible, under developed characters (half of which are villains for absolutely no reason, like the rebooted Hourman and Obsidian). I'm hoping that having a WW2 aged Johnny Thunder (who obviously was part of the JSA) on the main Earth means we'll get the WW2 JSA back on the main Earth soon. I really want to see characters like Alan Scott, Doctor Fate, Jay Garrick, Wildcat, Sandman, Hour-man, etc back in their full awesomeness, and not just be names attached to stupid characters in a bad comic.
We've discussed this many times. Add I know I can't change your mind.
But for those who haven't heard my reasons here they are.
  1. The JSA heroes aren't tied to WWII or the 40's, the way Captain America and other heroes created to fight the Axis powers are. The only JSAer who's origin was tied to the war is Wonder Woman. And that connection was left in the dust decades ago. Even Wonder Woman's membership is up for question at this point. The various heroes who make up the JSA were created as crime fighters, not war fighters.
  2. Wonder Woman, Batman and Superman were allowed to cut ties with the 40's and WWII, so why not the rest of the JSA?
  3. The JSA strip ran for 10 years, from 1940 to 1950. So half of its run was published after the war ended. And arguably, some of its best stories took place after the war ended. Of the stories that did take place in the war years. half again were not war related. They spent more time fighting crooks and mad scientists than the Axis.
  4. What I think of as the iconic line up is from the post war years: Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman, the Atom, Wonder Woman, Johnny Thunder, Dr. Mid-Nite and Black Canary. In fact Flash and GL sat out most of the war time issues because they were only Honorary Members in those years.
  5. What is the advantage of keeping them tied to WWII, outside of nostalgia? The characters would have to be pushing 100 years of age if they are living in 2016. Do we need an entire team of nonagenarians? The older they get the older or more unlikely their kids (Infinity Inc) are.
  6. No mention of WWII was made when the JSA was brought back in the early 60s. The first mention comes over a decade later when the origin of the JSA is told for the first time on 1977's DC Special #29. I doesn't go full swing until the 80's and the All-Star Squadron.
  7. The 70's All-Star revival is great. The blueprint for what the JSA would become in the 2000's: Older heroes and legacies. You don't need the WWII connection for that, just a previous generation of heroes..
 
We've discussed this many times. Add I know I can't change your mind.
But for those who haven't heard my reasons here they are.
  1. The JSA heroes aren't tied to WWII or the 40's, the way Captain America and other heroes created to fight the Axis powers are. The only JSAer who's origin was tied to the war is Wonder Woman. And that connection was left in the dust decades ago. Even Wonder Woman's membership is up for question at this point. The various heroes who make up the JSA were created as crime fighters, not war fighters.
  2. Wonder Woman, Batman and Superman were allowed to cut ties with the 40's and WWII, so why not the rest of the JSA?
  3. The JSA strip ran for 10 years, from 1940 to 1950. So half of its run was published after the war ended. And arguably, some of its best stories took place after the war ended. Of the stories that did take place in the war years. half again were not war related. They spent more time fighting crooks and mad scientists than the Axis.
  4. What I think of as the iconic line up is from the post war years: Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman, the Atom, Wonder Woman, Johnny Thunder, Dr. Mid-Nite and Black Canary. In fact Flash and GL sat out most of the war time issues because they were only Honorary Members in those years.
  5. What is the advantage of keeping them tied to WWII, outside of nostalgia? The characters would have to be pushing 100 years of age if they are living in 2016. Do we need an entire team of nonagenarians? The older they get the older or more unlikely their kids (Infinity Inc) are.
  6. No mention of WWII was made when the JSA was brought back in the early 60s. The first mention comes over a decade later when the origin of the JSA is told for the first time on 1977's DC Special #29. I doesn't go full swing until the 80's and the All-Star Squadron.
  7. The 70's All-Star revival is great. The blueprint for what the JSA would become in the 2000's: Older heroes and legacies. You don't need the WWII connection for that, just a previous generation of heroes..

When Barry Allen meets Jay for the first time, they outright state that Jay was active since the 40s, aka he's a WW2 hero. WW2 is as essential to the JSA as it is to Captain America. Without WW2, All-Star Squadron, Young All-Stars, Justice Society (90s mini-series), JSA Returns, JSA, and Justice Society of America wouldn't exist. All those series have deep ties to the teams WW2 history (especially AS Squadron, obviously).

Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman got disconnected from WW2 because of the Earth 1/Earth 2 stuff, which is fine. The other JSAers were WW2 heroes even when they were brought back, being active in the 40s. The prime versions of the Trinity were all basically rebooted, but the core JSA weren't. Even if they weren't created specifically for WW2, they have been WW2 heroes from 1942 until 2011.

Let's do some math. Let's be very generous and pretend the JSA weren't mentioned as WW2 heroes from their return until 1977 (they were, like I said above, but let's ignore that). So, from 1942 until All Star Comics demise in 1951 they were WW2 or WW2 connected heroes. Then, from 1977 until 2011 a lot (probably a majority after the All Star Comics run ended and All Star Squadron began) had at least some connection to the WW2 roots. So, that's 43 years with a direct WW 2 connection. The jSA was basically in limbo from 1951 until Flash of two worlds, so we won't count those years in anything.

So, using the (false) premise that they weren't WW2 heroes when they came back from limbo, they weren't WW2 heroes from 1961-1977, then from August 2011 to present. Let's also add 1939-1941, the pre-war years. So, about 23 years as not a WW2 team, and that's being very generous and ignoring references to them fighting in the 40s/WW2 during the 61-77 era. So, 43 years as a WW2 team (even if we cut off the directly post war years, its still 36-37 years as a WW2 team) compared to 23 years. You could even argue only 5 years if you don't ignore the fact that the 1961-1977 era were also WW2 heroes and just didn't mention it as much. you could even say it could be 0 years if you take what I said before and also don't count the New 52 stuff, since they never call themselves the JSA in the New 52 and the majority of the rebooted characters have no relation to the pre-New 52 characters except for the name, and a few New 52 versions (like Dr. Fate and Hourman) don't even share a name or any backstory with the pre-New 52 versions.

Even if you want to try to justify the JSA having any time post-1942 as not having a WW 2 connection, the JSA still spent spent 36-43 years with direct WW2 connections, and (in my opinion) all the great JSA series and stories are definitely connected to WW2. So, I'd say its essential for the team to be connected to WW2, at least that's where my opinion comes from.
 
When Barry Allen meets Jay for the first time, they outright state that Jay was active since the 40s, aka he's a WW2 hero.
No he says Jay got his powers in 1940. A reference to when Flash Comics #1 was released. It says nothing about WWII. America wouldn't enter the war for nearly two years after it was released. Not everything in the 40's was about the war. The war only covers five years of the decade not the entire decade WWII is 1939 to 1945 not 1940 to 1950.
Dates are mutable in comics. Flash of Two Worlds also states that it 1962 on Earth 1 and Earth 2 when the story takes place. Are we sticking with that as well? Is Barry in his 70s? If the date of the events of Flash of Two Worlds can change, then the dates of the events of Flash Comics #1 can change.

WW2 is as essential to the JSA as it is to Captain America. WW2 is as essential to the JSA as it is to Captain America. Without WW2, All-Star Squadron, Young All-Stars, Justice Society (90s mini-series), JSA Returns, JSA, and Justice Society of America wouldn't exist. All those series have deep ties to the teams WW2 history (especially AS Squadron, obviously)
. All those are modern series. There in lies the difference. The essentialness of those series is derived from continuity, not quality or necessity . I'm more than happy to jettison them to get a younger JSA. And they are among my favorites, because I love the JSA. I don't need them in continuity to like them. Currently I'm rereading the silver age JLA serie. A ton of those stories are problematic with "modern continuity". Especially the JSA team ups. Most J'Onzz's stories don't fit with any of the post COIE continuity. Doesn't impact my enjoyment at all. Continuity isn't that important to me anymore.

A WWII hero isn't any hero active in the war years. A WWII hero is a hero who's adventures revolve around the war. Their primary enemies are the Axis spies, saboteurs and soldiers. The prime example would be Captain America who's whole raison d'etre is kicking Axis ass. The JSA spent more time fighting crime. So they aren't WWII heroes.
 
Hulk's tied to atomic testing, something that hasn't been done in the West for a while. So I'm not sure where Banner would get his dose of Gamma radiation. Maybe a switch in disciplines to Nuclear Medicine.

I was pretty happy with the MCU solution of tying that to attempting to recreate the (poorly understood) super soldier serum. Genetic engineering and the possible pitfalls of it are becoming more relevant all the time.
 
I was pretty happy with the MCU solution of tying that to attempting to recreate the (poorly understood) super soldier serum. Genetic engineering and the possible pitfalls of it are becoming more relevant all the time.
They used the same explanation in the Ultimate comics for how Banner became the Hulk in the 21st Century. Also Norman Osborn's worked with the formula to unlock the correct mix with his resources at Oscorb. This created the Goblin Formula, and the infected the spiders that gave Peter and Miles their powers.
 
A WWII hero isn't any hero active in the war years. A WWII hero is a hero who's adventures revolve around the war. Their primary enemies are the Axis spies, saboteurs and soldiers.. The JSA spent more time fighting crime. So they aren't WWII heroes.
its true. the JSA never fought Axis spies, saboteurs or soldiers. except, you know, all those times they actually did.

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its true. the JSA never fought Axis spies, saboteurs or soldiers. except, you know, all those times they actually did.
Could you point out where I said the "JSA never fought Axis spies, saboteurs or soldiers"? Because I sure can't find it. Not even in the quote from my post. In fact that quote says exactly what my point was.
The JSA spent more time fighting crime.
Their Axis busting adventures mostly take place right after Pearl Harbor ( when patriotism was running high) and just before the war ends. The adventures in between have them fighting non Axis villains, And of course their post war adventure don't feature the Axis at all. So, as I5rttte4e stated, their primary foes are not Axis Axis spies, saboteurs or soldiers. If you'd like I can give you an issue by issue break down. I recently read the entire All-Star run, so it's fresh in my mind. I could even provide art illustrating it.
 
I actually liked how they did it post-crisis (then again, I would, having gotten into comics in the 90s), because having the JSA as WW2-veterans ties into the time the genre originated. They explained Jay Garrick and Alan Scott having been de-aged, or slowed aging, or something like that, while most of the other then-current JSA members were legacy heroes, like the new Starman, Sandy, Star-spangled Girl, new Mister Terific, etc. I would prefer them going back to that, but I'd gladly take the original JSA on Earth-2 set during WW2 (or some time after that), as long as it's actually recognizably the same characters (as opposed to the New 52 Earth-2).
 
Could you point out where I said the "JSA never fought Axis spies, saboteurs or soldiers"? Because I sure can't find it. Not even in the quote from my post. In fact that quote says exactly what my point was.
Their Axis busting adventures mostly take place right after Pearl Harbor ( when patriotism was running high) and just before the war ends. The adventures in between have them fighting non Axis villains, And of course their post war adventure don't feature the Axis at all. So, as I5rttte4e stated, their primary foes are not Axis Axis spies, saboteurs or soldiers. If you'd like I can give you an issue by issue break down. I recently read the entire All-Star run, so it's fresh in my mind. I could even provide art illustrating it.
your own definition of a 'WWII hero' includes the JSA... even though you think it doesn't for whatever reason.
 
your own definition of a 'WWII hero' includes the JSA... even though you think it doesn't for whatever reason.
Nope. The key phrase is "primary foes". Meaning the people they fight the most. Here it is again in context Pay attention to the bold parts.:
A WWII hero isn't any hero active in the war years. A WWII hero is a hero who's adventures revolve around the war. Their primary enemies are the Axis spies, saboteurs and soldiers. The prime example would be Captain America who's whole raison d'etre is kicking Axis ass. The JSA spent more time fighting crime. So they aren't WWII heroes.
To reiterate
The JSA's adventures do not revolve exclusively around the war. They are fighting crooks and super criminals rather than the Axis more often than not. So their primary enemies aren't the Axis. Captain America on the other hand fights the Axis in almost every adventure. He was created to fight the Axis.
Here's a break down of who they fought in the years (1940-1945) *= Axis villains
  • All Star Comics # 3- Solo stories of the JSA framed by a meeting.
  • All StarComics # 4- The JSA fight Nazis*
  • All Star Comics # 5- The JSA fight Mister X the mastermind behind a crime wave.
  • All Star Comics # 6- The JSA haze Johnny Thunder and round up a bunch of hoods in the process
  • All Star Comics # 7- The JSA raise money for war orphans ( related to the war, but all the villains are criminal types)
  • All Star Comics # 8- The JSA battle men driven mad by a Dr. Elba.
  • All Star Comics # 9- The JSA fight spies in Latin America*
  • All Star Comics #10- The JSA travel to the future to find the bomb defense formula (Slight connection to the war)
  • All Star Comics #11- The JSA members join the military and battle the Japanese*
  • All Star Comics #12- The JSA fight the Black Dragon Society*
  • All Star Comics #13- The JSA is sent into space by a Nazi scientist*
  • All Star Comics #14- The JSA distributes food pills to Occupied Europe*
  • All Star Comics #15- The JSA battle Brain Wave
  • All Star Comics #16- The JSA battle bigotry and Nazis*
  • All Star Comics #17- The JSA battle Brain Wave again
  • All Star Comics #18- The JSA fight King Bee
  • All Star Comics #19- The JSA fight a murderous musician
  • All Star Comics #20- The JSA vs The Monster
  • All Star Comics #21- The JSA time travel to help a man change his life.
  • All Star Comics #22- The JSA time travel again, this time to fight prejudice.
  • All Star Comics #23- The JSA vs the Psycho Pirate
  • All Star Comics #24- The JSA travel in time to show Dick Amber the history of German agression*
  • All Star Comics #25- The JSA solve the case of the forgotten crime
  • All Star Comics #26- The JSA vs aliens from Jupiter
  • All Star Comics #27- The JSA help a disabled vet cheer up some disabled children (post war no Axis villains)
 
Nope. The key phrase is "primary foes". Meaning the people they fight the most. Here it is again in context Pay attention to the bold parts.:

To reiterate
The JSA's adventures do not revolve exclusively around the war. They are fighting crooks and super criminals rather than the Axis more often than not. So their primary enemies aren't the Axis. Captain America on the other hand fights the Axis in almost every adventure. He was created to fight the Axis.
Here's a break down of who they fought in the years (1940-1945) *= Axis villains
  • All Star Comics # 3- Solo stories of the JSA framed by a meeting.
  • All StarComics # 4- The JSA fight Nazis*
  • All Star Comics # 5- The JSA fight Mister X the mastermind behind a crime wave.
  • All Star Comics # 6- The JSA haze Johnny Thunder and round up a bunch of hoods in the process
  • All Star Comics # 7- The JSA raise money for war orphans ( related to the war, but all the villains are criminal types)
  • All Star Comics # 8- The JSA battle men driven mad by a Dr. Elba.
  • All Star Comics # 9- The JSA fight spies in Latin America*
  • All Star Comics #10- The JSA travel to the future to find the bomb defense formula (Slight connection to the war)
  • All Star Comics #11- The JSA members join the military and battle the Japanese*
  • All Star Comics #12- The JSA fight the Black Dragon Society*
  • All Star Comics #13- The JSA is sent into space by a Nazi scientist*
  • All Star Comics #14- The JSA distributes food pills to Occupied Europe*
  • All Star Comics #15- The JSA battle Brain Wave
  • All Star Comics #16- The JSA battle bigotry and Nazis*
  • All Star Comics #17- The JSA battle Brain Wave again
  • All Star Comics #18- The JSA fight King Bee
  • All Star Comics #19- The JSA fight a murderous musician
  • All Star Comics #20- The JSA vs The Monster
  • All Star Comics #21- The JSA time travel to help a man change his life.
  • All Star Comics #22- The JSA time travel again, this time to fight prejudice.
  • All Star Comics #23- The JSA vs the Psycho Pirate
  • All Star Comics #24- The JSA travel in time to show Dick Amber the history of German agression*
  • All Star Comics #25- The JSA solve the case of the forgotten crime
  • All Star Comics #26- The JSA vs aliens from Jupiter
  • All Star Comics #27- The JSA help a disabled vet cheer up some disabled children (post war no Axis villains)
you can keep quoting yourself all you like. the JSA is a team of heroes who fought the Axis in WWII. Period. anything else is just splitting hairs.
 
you can keep quoting yourself all you like. the JSA is a team of heroes who fought the Axis in WWII. Period. anything else is just splitting hairs.
Did I say otherwise? What are you trying to prove here? Just about every hero published in the 40's spent some time fighting the Axis. Even Sherlock Holmes got some licks in. It's called being contemporary.
 
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