BREAKING: Official Fan Film Guidelines Issued
- Thread starter Danlav05
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I don't see how Alec Peters or Robert Burnett are responsible for Paramount/CBS imposing all these restrictions. It's interesting, or not so interesting, to see Paramount directly stipulate that producing DVD bonus features makes one a constrained professional.
In my view prohibiting people who made the actual products from making their own non-profit material, especially by reprising their characters, is pretty awful and the only valid reason for copyright restrictions is to prohibit people from monetarily profiting from someone/thing else's concepts. Otherwise it's just prohibiting works that would promote and/or compete with your own products, the latter interpretation indicating a great deal of insecurity.
In my view prohibiting people who made the actual products from making their own non-profit material, especially by reprising their characters, is pretty awful and the only valid reason for copyright restrictions is to prohibit people from monetarily profiting from someone/thing else's concepts. Otherwise it's just prohibiting works that would promote and/or compete with your own products, the latter interpretation indicating a great deal of insecurity.
Through the years Paramount/CBS had 1 rule regarding fan films. And only 1 rule. Do not profit off our IP.
Which fan production has a company store selling items?
How can you not see how AP is the direct cause of the guidelines, when he asked for them.
^His decisions and tactics certainly are the direct cause for expounding some restrictions but not for them being so extensive, that is hardly the only or inevitable response (reiterating that making profit is prohibited would certainly be a narrower response that would indicate it was just due to Axanar). The restrictions being so restrictive could well be due to dislike and intolerance of other popular fan productions, especially those involving people who formally worked on the official products.
I agree with you. I think that for years most productions did their level best to fly under the radar so they could create whatever they wanted and just have fun with it. With kickstarter and the like suddenly, the ability to raise mass funding on scales that most cannot imagine forced a response. I do think the rules are over the top, but I also think that they are subject to some negotiation...once the Axanar case has been put to bed. Frankly, its a waiting game now.
How is deciding to not watch a company's new show, especially one you would have to pay for if you did, childish? It seems more childish to expect that the fans will and should buy the company's newest material regardless of anything else the company does.
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I also feel the rules will change somewhat once Axanar has been put down. It's worth noting that CBS/P made certain that the rules could change at any time. Some think that's for their benefit, but considering how often they've looked the other way, it may be for the fan community's. Regardless, they took the most sensible course of action they could to protect their IP, while trying to extend an olive branch to the fan community.
The guidelines don't prohibit a single thing. All they say is that if you do X, Y, and Z CBS/P promise not to sue you. That's it. You are free to ignore the guidelines, forego the safe harbor, and roll the dice on getting sued or not.
Now to be fair, I would expect that the chance of being sued is higher than it was in the pre-guidelines era.
The biggest reason to do it is they are seeking to create a subscription or paid streaming service, on the back of the IP, with a void of content. Right now they are committing to 13 episodes of new content to support this project. It is unlikely that 60 minutes reruns will be what get people to sign up. This is why you would give them a piece of advertising. It adds content to your service. It still leaves you approving and controlling your IP. And it means you are only paying based on the traffic they generate. It would leverage the power and flexibility of the new medium, rather than simply thinking of it as a cable channel with no broadcast standards.
I agree with you that CBS has no obligation to do anything. That the fans read way to much into all of this, and do have far to great a sense of entitlement towards the IP at times. I just think in the modern direct to consumer era CBS could much better leverage that to their own profit, to the franchises greater success, and to an overall positive.
Fans do have a small say, individually a very small say, if they don't watch or buy something the studio won't want to make it anymore.
Yup. A lot of people are overlooking that.
In an earlier post today I said:
"I don't dispute CBS/P's right to do whatever they want with their legal property--and I can completely understand their dispute with anyone actually profiting from their copyrighted material--but I question the wisdom of punishing fans who spend their own time and money on endeavors that ultimately benefit CBS/P by helping keep Star Trek in the public eye as a cultural force that matters."
So, true, nobody has the right to play in their sandbox if they don't want them to, I just question the wisdom of kicking people out of the sandbox who are just trying to make the sandbox more fun and relevant. The kid who owns the sandbox can choose to share his toys with others so that everyone has fun together, but can rightly expect that at the end of the day, he gets all his toys back. Any kid who deliberately keeps/sells/breaks any toys should rightly be kicked out. The owner of the sandbox further has the right to tell the other kids exactly what toys they can play with, and how to play with them--they're his toys--but there's a point where if the rules of play become too stringent, it becomes no fun for the kids who require a certain level of freedom in order to have fun. Some kids may be fine with those rules, others not, that's their choice. In the end, the owner of the sandbox decides what kind of kids he wants to stay and play, and which ones are of any value to him. If CBS/P decides that STC, ST:NV and any of the other longer-format Star Trek series are of no value or somehow harm the brand, they are completely in their rights to kick them out of their sandbox, no question, legally. I just question the wisdom of it.
Well, first off, I think it's a little more than a stretch to suggest that a 15 minute science fiction short--or even a failed pilot--from 50 years ago alone (with no subsequent series or movies) could spawn this level of fandom today--conventions, books, comic books, games, toys etc., and, of course, fan films. It's only because Star Trek became a series with established characters that anyone remembers it at all. It grew a fan base in its time, but just as importantly it ran in syndication for years, where a subsequent generation watched it and fell in love with the characters. You can't do that with a 15 minute short, Oscar-winning or not, and certainly before the internet or even VHS it was near impossible for a wide audience to see anything on film/video that wasn't on TV or the theatre.
And Star Trek, again, is about the characters and stories, because it certainly wasn't about the effects, sets or monsters in TOS, or even later in TNG when the effects and makeup got better. People responded to and remembered the characters--got invested in their stories and backstories and their possible futures. There's simply no way to have that same investment in a character you see and will only see for 15 minutes. That's nothing against short films--they can be great--but where Star Trek is and always has been about characters that we get to know and love over time, short films with no recurring characters by their very nature cannot do the same job.
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Yes, they do, but fan films are a niche group. They're made for the hardcore Trek fans who are interested in fan productions. All of them could scream and shout at Paramount, and it wouldn't make much of a difference if CBS/P didn't cate. Yet we see that they do care. What got Axanar in trouble was trying to broadcast their fan film as a legitimate independent production to millions of Star Trek fans who were generally unaware of fan films being a thing, and when CBS/P said "no, you can't do that," Axanar spit in their face and openly defied them, and are continuing to fight them, so CBS/P had to be the disciplining parent. They had to be the bad guy to all of the kids who were playing in the hallway during bed time.
Off topic....I LOVED your series and hope you get to finish the final part.
On topic...I completely agree with you with what Star Trek is about. It was never about space or ships or aliens...it was about the people and how they would act in space on ships meeting aliens. I can see how difficult that will be when you lose recurring characters as a vehicle to drive your story.
See, to me, it's the fans are stuck in the past. A pretty entitled past. Things have changed. For good.
CBS and Paramount are in the business to make films and TV. Why on Earth would the license it out to incredibly small budgeted projects? Would the have to give it to everyone? What if 20th Century Fox wanted a license? Why set up a whole business department to do this? It doesn't sound like it would be cost effective.
How much do you think they should charge for a license?
So, more work for CBS? YouTube does this just fine. They can handle 15 minute videos.
So, a fan film can make money? Who gets the money? WHY should they get money? Wouldn't the moment it starts making money it's no longer a fan film it's a professional product? And wouldn't that be in direct competition of CBS and Paramount?
Yep. CBS just posted basic and common sense restrictions on using their IP for free. But, don't forget, you are now suggesting people pay for it.
They don't need the fans to work for them. They HIRE people to work for them. They want the fans to be there, to show up, to pay for things. But, they want to HIRE professionals to make their product.
They literally just did. CBS/Paramount just gave out guidelines that provide a creative space that won't get you sued. And maintains control of their IP.
Why should the fans make money off of fan films? What is the reasoning? And, then, technically they would professionals, not fans. But, I'm curious, why should they be allowed to profit off of someone else's IP?
Or, again, maybe entitled fans should realize they don't own the thing they are fans of.
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People generally agree that the characters are what makes Star Trek so enjoyable, so go out and make your own universe with your own characters that people love and admire. Then you'll have full creative control. There's no claim on a utopian future, whatever you may feel it should be, so go out there and do it, get it started. Hell, Gene Roddenberry took Wagon Train and set it in space, so you won't be the first, and you'll be following in the footsteps of someone who made their IP succeed on a scale I bet they could have never imagined!
The problem that arises when making a modern fan film is that with Kickstarter and Indiegogo, no longer is a fan film just a labor of love, but a six to seven figure production that brings on board official actors reprising their official characters from Star Trek, making feature length films, and multi-episode series, some of them selling perks like patches and DVD copies of the episode/film.
Think about it: stages have to be built, electric systems installed, studios rented or purchased, crews to come in and set things up for filming, that's carpenters, electricians, plumbers, a whole host of tradespersons, all to get this six and seven digit budget fan film rolling. It has become a cottage industry in its own right, and as much as I love a lot of these fan productions, it was getting out of control. CBS/P did the right thing by stepping in.
Now this part may be a little more harsh, and it's directed toward the people who believe $50,000 and 30 minutes is too limiting, and you want to see fan films in their current state continue. First, let me remind you: You're essentially telling CBS it's reasonable to let a fan group make a TV length series using their IP. Again, a cottage industry is born and making cash off of CBS/P's property, and CBS gets nothing for it. You may think "but the fans will be happy!" and that leads me to my second point: Star Trek fans are spoiled rotten.
You get mad at CBS for not letting you make full production episodes, and profiting (whether economically or professionally) off of their intellectual property? What right do you have to do that? It's not your property to use as you see fit, and quite frankly, asking for the leeway some of you have asked for is pure entitlement. You're a fan, not an investor. You may buy things from CBS/Paramount, but when you make that purchase, you get the item's value, not extra rights to dictate what you can and cannot do with their property. If you want to play producer, start your own universe and go from there. You'll have far more range of creative expression, and you won't have the IP rights holder watching to see whether or not you profit off of their work. Otherwise, accept that your playtime in the sandbox is restricted, because it is not your sandbox, and they are not your toys.
That's harsh, but considering some of the more outrageous responses to CBS/Paramount's decision in light of what Axanar has done, I think it's a fair statement.
The problem that arises when making a modern fan film is that with Kickstarter and Indiegogo, no longer is a fan film just a labor of love, but a six to seven figure production that brings on board official actors reprising their official characters from Star Trek, making feature length films, and multi-episode series, some of them selling perks like patches and DVD copies of the episode/film.
Think about it: stages have to be built, electric systems installed, studios rented or purchased, crews to come in and set things up for filming, that's carpenters, electricians, plumbers, a whole host of tradespersons, all to get this six and seven digit budget fan film rolling. It has become a cottage industry in its own right, and as much as I love a lot of these fan productions, it was getting out of control. CBS/P did the right thing by stepping in.
Now this part may be a little more harsh, and it's directed toward the people who believe $50,000 and 30 minutes is too limiting, and you want to see fan films in their current state continue. First, let me remind you: You're essentially telling CBS it's reasonable to let a fan group make a TV length series using their IP. Again, a cottage industry is born and making cash off of CBS/P's property, and CBS gets nothing for it. You may think "but the fans will be happy!" and that leads me to my second point: Star Trek fans are spoiled rotten.
You get mad at CBS for not letting you make full production episodes, and profiting (whether economically or professionally) off of their intellectual property? What right do you have to do that? It's not your property to use as you see fit, and quite frankly, asking for the leeway some of you have asked for is pure entitlement. You're a fan, not an investor. You may buy things from CBS/Paramount, but when you make that purchase, you get the item's value, not extra rights to dictate what you can and cannot do with their property. If you want to play producer, start your own universe and go from there. You'll have far more range of creative expression, and you won't have the IP rights holder watching to see whether or not you profit off of their work. Otherwise, accept that your playtime in the sandbox is restricted, because it is not your sandbox, and they are not your toys.
That's harsh, but considering some of the more outrageous responses to CBS/Paramount's decision in light of what Axanar has done, I think it's a fair statement.
See, that last part might be the most important part. If we can calmly discuss things amongst ourselves, don't talk about boycotts, and be patient, things might improve.
First wait is only three days till the 29th, so let's see what transpires from the upcoming podcast.
[engage Yoda mode]
"Patient must we be, mmm?"
[end Yoda mode]
No. Not odd.
They DID sue a fan film. That's not very passive.
And, I'm assuming the guidelines start now.
I keep seeing people say that CBS and Paramount could make money from fan films. I've seen people say that CBS/P are turning their backs on millions of dollars in free publicity. I have my doubts. I've watched a few fan films, but of all the people I know offline who ever watch Trek, I know exactly one other person who's ever watched any Star Trek fan films. Everyone else is befuddled that such things exist, and twice as befuddled that anyone would watch them. ETA: that's not meant as any kind of comment on the quality of any fan films, some of which are doing remarkable work. But this is as niche as niche gets.
