What if they had made Harrison one of Khan's former Eugenics War Generals in Into Darkness?

[Franklin]

We'll never know, but I wonder how many who saw STID had/have never seen TWOK, let alone "Space Seed". TWOK was a thirty year-old movie when STID came out. Anyone who was 22 when they saw it wouldn't even be in the prime demographic for most sci-fi/action/adventure movies, any more. That is, not a target audience. (Sadly, that includes me.) I doubt one in twenty who saw STID watched "Space Seed" any time in the last ten years, if at all. I'd think, again we'll never know for sure, but only a small niche of a small niche of fans really cared about how Cumberbatch looked compared to how Khan was "supposed" to look, and even a smaller number of them cared enough that it affected how they liked the movie.

The comic book explanation of things was stupid, in my opinion. (There, I said it.) To me, needing to "reconcile his looks," with "Space Seed" was, well comic-bookish.

 

[Trekkin]

To me, needing to "reconcile his looks," with "Space Seed" was, well comic-bookish

Every 'EU' in a nutshell. Everything must be explained.

 

[Khan 2.0]

I imagine the idea of doing a flashback showing the Botany Bay found and Montalban turning into Cumberbatch FaceOff/Die Another Day style mustve come up at some point but was obviously decided to be unnecessary/fan pandering and to just put it in the comic (probably similar to why there was no Picard or Data in the Spock flashback/forward scene in STXI..or ShatKirk hologram at the end)

 

[Unionized Elf]

ShatKirk hologram at the end

That wasn't done because Shatner was uncooperative, wanting a significant portion of the story rather than a cameo.

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

I imagine the idea of doing a flashback showing the Botany Bay found and Montalban turning into Cumberbatch FaceOff/Die Another Day style mustve come up at some point but was obviously decided to be unnecessary/fan pandering and to just put it in the comic (probably similar to why there was no Picard or Data in the Spock flashback/forward scene in STXI..or ShatKirk hologram at the end)

When Khan states that Harrison was a "fiction created by Admiral Marcus" is it really that far fetched to imagine reconstructive surgery as part of that?

I mean, Trek has always treated changing appearance as outpatient surgery (Kirk to Romulan, Quark to a female, Troi to a Romulan, Kira to a Cardassian, etc) that requires little, if any, extensive preparation or risk. I think Riker's was the longest but only as a matter of learning about the culture he was in.

Nice thought, but I'm not sure it would have added anything.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Leaving things to the imagination is, like, sooo 1980s...


That kind of stuff is now considered "poor writing" on teh internets, y'know...

 

[Ovation]

When Khan states that Harrison was a "fiction created by Admiral Marcus" is it really that far fetched to imagine reconstructive surgery as part of that?

I mean, Trek has always treated changing appearance as outpatient surgery (Kirk to Romulan, Quark to a female, Troi to a Romulan, Kira to a Cardassian, etc) that requires little, if any, extensive preparation or risk. I think Riker's was the longest but only as a matter of learning about the culture he was in.

Nice thought, but I'm not sure it would have added anything.

I know the mantra is "show, don't tell", but it seems many people conflate that mantra with "it wasn't "explained" so the writers suck". Personally, I LOATHE moments when storytellers (on film or elsewhere) have characters spout off exposition or do some sort of flashback to "explain" something a reasonably aware 9 year old could deduce just by paying attention. One does not NEED to presume surgery to accept Khan looks dramatically different (though not nearly as much as many make it out to be) but if the difference is that bothersome, one can easily imagine a deliberately altered appearance and it does not require "proof".

 

[Christmas Canon Spock]

Leaving things to the imagination is, like, sooo 1980s...


That kind of stuff is now considered "poor writing" on teh internets, y'know...

What? You mean I have to show you everything???

No wonder why my writing sucks

I know the mantra is "show, don't tell", but it seems many people conflate that mantra with "it wasn't "explained" so the writers suck". Personally, I LOATHE moments when storytellers (on film or elsewhere) have characters spout off exposition or do some sort of flashback to "explain" something a reasonably aware 9 year old could deduce just by paying attention. One does not NEED to presume surgery to accept Khan looks dramatically different (though not nearly as much as many make it out to be) but if the difference is that bothersome, one can easily imagine a deliberately altered appearance and it does not require "proof".

Apparently not. Apparently it has to be explained.

 

[M'Sharak]

I'm reminded of a series of threads some time ago, in which it was maintained:
that each failure to show every step of the narrative in full detail constituted a plot hole;
that each failure to explain every last story element to the Nth degree constituted a plot hole;
that each instance of something being left to the imagination of the viewer constituted a plot hole;
that, since CGI now made it possible to show anything, nothing should ever not be shown - even a partial omission constituted a plot hole.

I honestly can't imagine what a movie made to conform to those specifications would be like. I suspect I'd find it unwatchable.

 

[Commander Richard]

We'll never know, but I wonder how many who saw STID had/have never seen TWOK, let alone "Space Seed". TWOK was a thirty year-old movie when STID came out. Anyone who was 22 when they saw it wouldn't even be in the prime demographic for most sci-fi/action/adventure movies, any more. That is, not a target audience. (Sadly, that includes me.) I doubt one in twenty who saw STID watched "Space Seed" any time in the last ten years, if at all. I'd think, again we'll never know for sure, but only a small niche of a small niche of fans really cared about how Cumberbatch looked compared to how Khan was "supposed" to look, and even a smaller number of them cared enough that it affected how they liked the movie.

The comic book explanation of things was stupid, in my opinion. (There, I said it.) To me, needing to "reconcile his looks," with "Space Seed" was, well comic-bookish.

This is a good argument for not including an explanation or montage. On the other hand, the viewing public is often more savvy than they're given credit for so it wouldn't surprise me if the issue did come to mind for more people than we might think.

I do agree that not everything needs to be explained. The ending of BSG comes to mind as does Worf's presence in the movies. But a montage explaining Khan's change in appearance? I see it as a nice little nod to TOS continuity rather than than a necessity and I think it would have fit nicely within a slightly altered version of the brief account he already gave from his holding cell.

 

[Ovation]

I'm reminded of a series of threads some time ago, in which it was maintained:
that each failure to show every step of the narrative in full detail constituted a plot hole;
that each failure to explain every last story element to the Nth degree constituted a plot hole;
that each instance of something being left to the imagination of the viewer constituted a plot hole;
that, since CGI now made it possible to show anything, nothing should ever not be shown - even a partial omission constituted a plot hole.

I honestly can't imagine what a movie made to conform to those specifications would be like. I suspect I'd find it unwatchable.

And probably 27 hours long.

 

[Santa Kang]

I'm reminded of a series of threads some time ago, in which it was maintained:
that each failure to show every step of the narrative in full detail constituted a plot hole;
that each failure to explain every last story element to the Nth degree constituted a plot hole;
that each instance of something being left to the imagination of the viewer constituted a plot hole;
that, since CGI now made it possible to show anything, nothing should ever not be shown - even a partial omission constituted a plot hole.

I honestly can't imagine what a movie made to conform to those specifications would be like. I suspect I'd find it unwatchable.

Same mentality in comic fans. They need a checklist of what every other hero was doing when Captain Amazing was fighting off the invaders from Dimension XX.

 

[M'Sharak]

And probably 27 hours long.

I once had it figured at 17 hours-plus, but that was probably still too conservative an estimate.

Same mentality in comic fans. They need a checklist of what every other hero was doing when Captain Amazing was fighting off the invaders from Dimension XX.

Oh, checklists. There was one here before the 2009 movie which had Gary Mitchell right at the top. Because it was inconceivable that Jim Kirk's BFF wouldn't be in the movie.

 

[JKM]

I actually watched STID yesterday with someone who wasn't really a Star Trek fan, they saw the 09 and had liked it and wanted to watch ID. So I put it on. They proceeded to pay half attention to the movie, talking to the other person next to them and then made a comment afterwards how it was "hard to follow". They asked if Pike was Kirk's dad too and I was thinking apparently they paid as much attention to the 09 movie as ID. They also were confused when Cumberbatch stated "My name is Khan" like it was supposed to mean something. Just cemented my belief that for general viewers it would have been better to leave him as just John Harrison a 31 rogue agent. The name Khan only meant something to the hardcore fans.

It also made it obvious why so many movie goers want everything spelled out. Pay attention? Why should I do that?

 

[C.E. Evans]

It may be a reflection of the "fanboy times" we live in that almost everything is analyzed and scrutinized for faults. Imagination, or the simple practice of putting two and two together, is becoming a lost art it seems. Fans filling in the blanks of things not shown onscreen was an aspect of Trek fandom back in the day, but there's an increasing demand for stories to not have any blanks these days or else they're considered plot holes or just lazy writing..

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I made a point of not reading up anything about STID and did my best to avoid blatant spoilers, though had heard various rumours about who Cumberbatch was playing. Watching the first half of the film, I was liking Harrison as an original bad guy for the crew to face, someone highly intelligent, resourceful, and definitely more than a match for Kirk.

When the "My name is Khan" line happened I groaned is disgust in the middle of the cinema, getting a scowl from a couple of others near me for it as well. From there it was all downhill (admittedly after starship underwater and gross violation of the Prime Directive the bar was set pretty damn low to begin with).

In my opinion, Harrison was a far better foe than Khan for this movie, someone who's background was more hidden in shadow. Maybe he was one of Khan's people, or descended from the genetic supermen of the late-20th century, or maybe he was the beginning of a new breed of engineered humans. There was far more possibilities with Harrison than Khan.

 

[Commander Richard]

I liked it as a creative twist on Khan. They set up a new timeline so that they could do things differently and they did.

 

[Unionized Elf]

I liked it as a creative twist on Khan. They set up a new timeline so that they could do things differently and they did.

Except everything prior to Nero's arrival is supposed to be the same between the two timelines.

 

[Santa Kang]

Except everything prior to Nero's arrival is supposed to be the same between the two timelines.

Khan comes out of hibernation after Nero's attack.

 

[Unionized Elf]

Khan comes out of hibernation after Nero's attack.

But was born before it. The surgical alterations aren't canon, I don't have to acknowledge them, as far as canon is concerned, an Indian man has suddenly turned while.

And I'm aware the same thing happened in TWOK. But I allow that, since as every True Trek Fan is aware, TWOK is the epitome of perfection.