• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

So, was Cochrane's warp drive concept something special, or wasn't it ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I've certainly never found it to imply otherwise; where do you, specifically?

When I wrote that reply I couldn't see how to interpret your earlier remark "it started out as an Earth organization" otherwise. Sounded to me like you meant that earth SF was the sole predecessor (or at least by far and away the most important one) and therefore essentially the same organisation. However, that was before I read this post and your next ones, detailing the idea of a gradually evolving role of Starfleet, which I think is a very interesting one. Never thought of it that way.

I'd still say though that I'd like to believe that there would be a distinct difference between Earth's Starfleet and the Federation's, even if only formally, by some Federation charter bestowed on it, at the time the Federation basic structures were formed. Perhaps that's 'fanon' but I sure think it would be the most likely thing to happen.

It seems likely that there are no more separate UFP member militaries in the 24th century-- or at least not with a significant combat strength - otherwise I can't see how these would have escaped any mention as a significant factor in that protracted Dominion War, for example (I only can recall those localized Betazed defences that were considered obsolete) . So, where have those militaries gone? Abandoned ? Gradually integrated into Starfleet ? (And if the latter, the question remains why Starfleet seems so human dominated, even in Dominion War times -- there's the odd Vulcan admiral or Ferengi Ensign, but that's about it).
 
Last edited:
Prior to Earth's "emergence" the other species that joined the Federation had been around for decades and even thousands of years, yet no Federation type alliance came into being.

Now that is an interesting issue. Certainly the UFP is an important alliance - but it could well be but the latest in a long series of alliances, just as in Earth history, with each set more comprehensive than the preceding one. Surely the "usual suspects" would have seen the benefit of ganging up against others, forming Cordial Alliances and other such short-lived associations on the scale of the Coalition of Planets or smaller, until the UFP came along. Canon isn't exactly in contravention of this, so inserting these past alliances would offer plenty of interesting story material.

OTOH, canon never really mentions any alliances of note other than the UFP, until the one joining the Dominion, the Cardassians and the Breen at the hip comes along. Even the Romulan-Klingon alliance in the TOS era is more or less a myth.

While it possible that the NX-01 was intended to be a primarily exploration ship, Starfleet predates that ship and they had eariler starships that by appearances were not used for exploration. ENT Starfleet was probably a military/defensive organization from the time of it's creation. Even if they don't apply the term "military" to themselves.

ENT makes much noise about NX-01 being the first exploration vessel of any worth in the UE Starfleet... In contrast, nothing is said about preceding combat vessels, for or against. And we indeed see that preceding vessels do exist, and have major combat capabilities.

DS9 said that the Vulcan's have their own starbases, TNG said Vulcan have their own defense starships.

Not quite. Vulcan has defensive starships in "Unification", but there's nothing to suggest those would be "their own". Could be generic Starfleet ones equally well.

What mention is made of a "Vulcan starbase"?

I seem to recall that the purpose of the organization itself was stated early on as exploration, with a motto of "Semper exploro," and that when the M.A.C.O.S. came on board in "The Expanse" it was a potential source of discomfort that they now had "the military" on board.

A source of discomfort, perhaps, but not of any sort of novelty. So soldiers armed to the teeth boarded the ship? Well, they met other soldiers armed to the teeth (and with better guns), in Starfleet uniforms - Archer had plenty of those aboard from the get-go. And Archer's ship had big guns, whereas we never heard of a MACO ship let alone one with big guns.

Sounds like "Military" is a rival fighting organization to "Starfleet", just like "US Army" is the rival of "US Navy" today. Sure would be discomforting for Army Rangers to board a Navy vessel, as if Navy SEALs couldn't do their job!

This covers all the four references to "the Military" in Star Trek, really. The ENT heroes concern themselves with pure interservices rivalry; Picard disparages the Military for its mindless drills that professional Starfleet fighting men and women don't require; and Scotty similarly thinks he's being asked to do the sort of mindless obeying that the infantry in the Military is infamous for.

That they draw attention the fact the phase pistols had "two settings" implies to me this is not standard weaponry of the time. If there had been stun settings on the EM-33 it presumably wouldn't be necessary to indicate which was which on the phase pistol. Certainly everyone should naturally assume the left button meant stun and the right was kill. Hell, this practice is continued on all phaser models for the next 200 years, why would previous weapons do it any differently?

I don't get the "left must be stun" argument, as there's absolutely no hint of standardization in phaser controls through the ages. But I want to point out that the distinct MACO guns, supposedly trusted old plasma blasters rather than 'em newfangled phase guns (compare the visual effects), still had the ability to stun, on two S3 occasions. Or was that just good marksmanship with a theoretically fatal weapon?

Older guns having stun settings does go against the spirit of the "Broken Bow" dialogue. But there could have been older weapons combining a stun gun with a kill gun, essentially a taser welded to a laser - the difference in "Broken Bow" would be that stun and kill are now settings for one weapon, rather than two separate weapons in the same casing.

ENT shows us combination weapons all right - the plasma rifles of Reed's soldiers eventually gain a phaser overbarrel, so that the lower barrel keeps on firing the whitish bolts that kill ans the upper barrel spits out multifunctional reddish beams. Such things might have been commonplace in Starfleet/Military history.

Timo Saloniemi
 
the question remains why Starfleet seems so human dominated
Could be like NATO, there are 28 countries militaries, but the United States has the biggest swing dick in the organization. More ships, more people, more weapons, more money.

If Vulcan has their own starships, by inferance all federation members do (or can).

If Vulcan has it's own starbases, then all federation members do (or can).

If Betazed has their own planetary defenses, all federation members do (or can).

It was mention in TNG (Allegiance) that a federation member the Bolians had a war with the Moropa. This apparently didn't involve Starfleet. The Bolians must of had their own forces to engage in warfare until the truce could be formed.

Since I believe that the federation is a alliance (and not a nation/state) this imho makes sense. Members would have the option whether or not to bring in Starfleet, or handle things themselves.
What mention is made of a "Vulcan starbase"?
Take Me Out to the Holosuite, Sisko mentions that there's a Vulcan starbase a few dozen light years away.
 
You've obviously never handled actual weapons if you think it's as simple as "seen one, seen 'em all." There of course may be strong similarities among many models but familiarity with the particulars of one does not confer instant familiarity with another, especially not if it's a wholly new type of weapon!
Every Starfleet phaser and alien weapon with a stun setting has been configured in the same manner, it's not too much of a stretch to assume it's standard practice.
The principle is exactly the same. The weapons are there to deal with threats to the ship and crew, both foreseen and unforeseen, that might be encountered out there in the unknown. That doesn't make Starfleet a military,
Actually, only military organizations are permitted to arm ships these days. For example, in Canada, the Coast Guard is a civilian agency, and it's ships and personnel are not armed. With the exception of the ships sent to the North Pole, they are allowed one rifle, and it's only to be used against polar bears.
Take Me Out to the Holosuite, Sisko mentions that there's a Vulcan starbase a few dozen light years away.
He actually says "Vulcan station" which is fifty light years away. At that distance, it could very well be in the Vulcan system.
 
Every Starfleet phaser and alien weapon with a stun setting has been configured in the same manner, it's not too much of a stretch to assume it's standard practice.

What do you mean? There aren't even two Starfleet phasers with the same user interface: ENT has trigger plus selector lever, TOS has two thumbwheels, a hook and optionally a button, TNG has three mystery buttons, JJverse has, well, nothing visible. A person trained on one of these guns couldn't even reliably decide which end spits out the death ray in another gun...

It would be much easier for a person familiar with real 17th century firearms to start operating 21st century ones, or vice versa. Those user interfaces are virtually identical.

Timo Saloniemi
 
It was mention in TNG (Allegiance) that a federation member the Bolians had a war with the Moropa. This apparently didn't involve Starfleet.

What the episode said was that there was an uneasy truce. Had there been fighting previously, Starfleet might well have been involved. But it would be up to the Moropa to decide whether they wanted to hate the Federation or just the Bolians, regardless of which sort of front stopped their hatred from having the desired results.

A choice of terminology might also have political grounds. Amusingly, Germany in the 20th century was always at war with England, not with Great Britain...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Starfleet in the 22nd century could have been designed for exploration purposes, but used from trade protection against piracy. Though given that the freighter captains were upgrading their ships with more plasma cannons, it seems they didn't hold much stock in Starfleet's protection, until the NX-class arrived.
 
The NX class were few in numbers and slow to be built, I doubt they gave the freighter captains much reason to feel safe.
 
Prior to the NX-class, Starfleet ships were not much, if any faster than the Freighters, so they wouldn't be able to respond to pirate attacks in anything remotely considered a reasonable amount of time. At least outside an Earth patrolled star system.
 
IMHO, the evidence that Starfleet is not a military outranks the evidence that it is. Fact, in "Peak Performance" (TNG), Picard specifically says that Starfleet is not a military. As a member (and captain of the flagship) he would know what he's talking about. In ENT, we see that Starfleet was originally chartered for exploration, which is their main objective as we see throughout the TV shows and movies. (And the reason that the NX-01 got tangled up in so many military operations was because it was the most powerful ship Earth had at the moment.)

Now, Starfleet is a defense arm of the Federation and will go to war when circumstances warrant it. But that is not their reason for existing nor their main program (for example, the only warships known to the fleet are the Defiant-class, which can double as a regular exploration ship as needed, and the illegal Dreadnaught-class Section 31 built in the Abramsverse). If Starfleet was supposed to be a military, it was a pretty soft one (the navy ranking system isn't useful for pro-military, since it's just a chain of command that could be divorced from it's military origins and still work).
 
Now, Starfleet is a defense arm of the Federation and will go to war when circumstances warrant it.
That sentence right there is enough proof that Starfleet is a military. But if that's not good enough, we also have:
-Starfleet officers who have broken the law face a court martial. Court martials are exclusively military and do not exist outside of the military.
-Starfleet has its own penal facilities, it is illegal for anyone other than the government's corrections department or the military to operate a penal facility.
-Starfleet provides security at Earth embassies, as task only handled by a nation's military.
-Various Starfleet personnel such as Captain Kirk and Chief O'Brien have described themselves as soldiers.
-Starfleet has a protocol authorizing the eradication of all life on an inhabited planet. Would anyone other than the military be authorized to do such a thing. Hell, even the military shouldn't be.
(for example, the only warships known to the fleet are the Defiant-class, which can double as a regular exploration ship as needed, and the illegal Dreadnaught-class Section 31 built in the Abramsverse
The Intrepid class was also designed for combat. Tom Paris says so in the opening scene of The Thaw.
 
So what's wrong with Starfleet being a civilian and military organization? Does it have to be more complicated than that?
 
That sentence right there is enough proof that Starfleet is a military. But if that's not good enough, we also have:
-Starfleet officers who have broken the law face a court martial. Court martials are exclusively military and do not exist outside of the military.
-Starfleet has its own penal facilities, it is illegal for anyone other than the government's corrections department or the military to operate a penal facility.
-Starfleet provides security at Earth embassies, as task only handled by a nation's military.
-Various Starfleet personnel such as Captain Kirk and Chief O'Brien have described themselves as soldiers.
-Starfleet has a protocol authorizing the eradication of all life on an inhabited planet. Would anyone other than the military be authorized to do such a thing. Hell, even the military shouldn't be.

- Is a Starfleet court-martial the same as a military one?
- When did Starfleet have it's own penal system? Looking at Memory Alpha, the only references are to Federation penal facilities.
- The only example of Starfleet guarding an embassy I recall was in ENT, in an era when Starfleet was Earth's most advanced operation in space. (Also, Starfleet works with the Federation in diplomacy.)
- Just because two officers consider themselves soldiers doesn't mean that they're working for a military (esp. since we also have comments from other Starfleet officers that Starfleet isn't a military). On top of that, Kirk self-identified as a solider in "Errand of Mercy" (TOS). Later in "Whom Gods Destroy" (TOS), when called a soldier, Kirk counters that he's an explorer.

The Intrepid class was also designed for combat. Tom Paris says so in the opening scene of The Thaw.

But is it meant for war? All Starfleet starships can defend themselves and can fight in Federation wars if need be, but that's not their primary function. That's not even Starfleet's primary function, even excusing it's non-military roots, as seen in ENT. Case in point:

- "That's what scares me! This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers." (Scotty on the assassinate "John Harrison" mission, Star Trek Into Darkness)

- "Starfleet is not a military organization. It's purpose is exploration." (Picard, "Peak Performance" [TNG])

- "This is not a ship of war. It's a ship of peace." (Guinan describing the Enterprise-D, "Yesterday's Enterprise" [TNG])

- "Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. It's five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before." (Kirk, TOS)

Is Starfleet paramilitary? Yes, it has the structure and capabilities for combat when needed. Is it a de facto military? I don't see how, esp. since we have onscreen confirmation that it's not.
 
-Starfleet officers who have broken the law face a court martial. Court martials are exclusively military and do not exist outside of the military.
-Starfleet has its own penal facilities, it is illegal for anyone other than the government's corrections department or the military to operate a penal facility.
-Starfleet provides security at Earth embassies, as task only handled by a nation's military.
-Various Starfleet personnel such as Captain Kirk and Chief O'Brien have described themselves as soldiers.
-Starfleet has a protocol authorizing the eradication of all life on an inhabited planet. Would anyone other than the military be authorized to do such a thing. Hell, even the military shouldn't be.

Any and all of these current facts could change at the drop of a hat. It becomes convenient to outsource embassy security to a commercial enterprise? It gets outsourced. Private penal facilities become desirable? They get built. Doctors or software engineers need the clearance to erase species (including and especially sapient ones) at the push of a button without consulting higher-ups? Emergency provisions for that are made. All it takes is a bit of lawmaking, possibly after the fact.

The significant thing about the above list is that Starfleet clearly does its damnedest to uphold peculiar military traditions. Doesn't mean they would be particularly "entitled" to uphold those - anybody can co-opt traditions. Perhaps Kirk and O'Brien are soldiers in the Salvation Army sense?

There's no doubt that Starfleet is the only thing in the UFP that we could call a "military". There seems to be some doubt whether Starfleet calls itself that. But calling is separate from being. Words and their meanings change over time - and apparently the primary warfighting force of a nation isn't called a "military" in the Trek future any more, at least not from the 23rd century on. But that's fine, because we have no evidence that a "military" would exist in that future - all the references are to it not existing, or at least not being Starfleet, so there are no contradicting definitions to worry about. Starfleet can still be "it", l just by an all-new name.

Timo Saloniemi
 
- Is a Starfleet court-martial the same as a military one?

Is "military" not part of the definition of court martial?

The role of navies throughout the years has often included non wartime roles of exploration, diplomacy and supporting scientific study. That in no way precludes their being military organisations. Picard is stated on screen saying that starfleet is not a military organisation, but that is more readily taken as illustrating his own personal take on the organisation rather than a consensus. We see that philosophy leading to clashes with other equally or higher ranked officers on numerous occasions throughout the series.

The fact is in times of war starfleet has nothing else with which to defend itself. It is amongst other roles a defence agency with a military structure. The fact that much of it's duties are peaceful does not mitigate this.
 
After a few days of trying to organize my thoughts, here's what more I have to offer. It admittedly gets a bit speculative in places as it goes on, though I think still with a reasonable basis in what we've been shown, so I'll start with some responses to specific points other posters have made in the meantime...

It seems likely that there are no more separate UFP member militaries in the 24th century-- or at least not with a significant combat strength - otherwise I can't see how these would have escaped any mention as a significant factor in that protracted Dominion War, for example (I only can recall those localized Betazed defences that were considered obsolete).
Well, just because Betazed had pitiful defenses doesn't necessarily mean everyone else did as well. I mean, the Betazoids seem to be a particularly open and easygoing culture, don't they, what with all the touchy-feely empathic stuff and such? And Earth also had its Mars Defense Perimeter, which was certainly woefully undermatched to a Borg cube, but then so seemed even the armadas of starships that we saw go up against them, but for our Enterprise-ing heroes swooping in to save the day at the eleventh hour.

Sounds like "Military" is a rival fighting organization to "Starfleet", just like "US Army" is the rival of "US Navy" today. Sure would be discomforting for Army Rangers to board a Navy vessel, as if Navy SEALs couldn't do their job!

This covers all the four references to "the Military" in Star Trek, really. The ENT heroes concern themselves with pure interservices rivalry; Picard disparages the Military for its mindless drills that professional Starfleet fighting men and women don't require; and Scotty similarly thinks he's being asked to do the sort of mindless obeying that the infantry in the Military is infamous for.
I see what you've hit on there with "the Military" (as in "the Military Assault Command and its Operations" I take it), but then we have numerous instances within the same period and beyond of it being used in the general sense familiar to us today. Malcolm repeatedly describes himself as coming from "a military family" in context of the Royal Navy (which interestingly apparently still exists in some form). David Marcus says "scientists have always been pawns of the military" in context of Starfleet itself, as does Sisko in "Paradise Lost" when he calls Leyton's plan to put Starfleet in direct control of the government one of "military dictatorship." There are no doubt others that escape my mind at the moment. And neither Scotty nor Picard uses it as a proper noun with a definite article anyway. Commendation for original thinking, though!

Older guns having stun settings does go against the spirit of the "Broken Bow" dialogue.
Honestly, I can't see how it does. That the EM-33s had no stun setting of any sort seems to me a huge leap to take from the dialogue as presented, and I do not for a moment believe that was its intent. I say this again now after having reviewed the actual scene rather than going by the transcript alone. There is nothing about it that attributes a sense of novelty to the presence of a stun setting itself, merely to the overall design of the weapon. And how can you say this goes against the "spirit" of the text in the same breath that you suggest interpretations of the "military" comments that go much more against their own likely intended meanings?

(For the record, I'm not one who believes that authorial intent should always be taken as the ultimate arbiter in explication and interpretation of a text, and I very much enjoy many of your posts on various subjects for their boldness and imagination in going beyond and even sometimes against it. I just don't see this as a remotely logical inference to draw from "Broken Bow," irrespective of whatever implications it might or might not have in any point of view on the debate as to Starfleet's nature.)

Every Starfleet phaser and alien weapon with a stun setting has been configured in the same manner
I really have no idea where you are getting that from.

I don't get the "left must be stun" argument, as there's absolutely no hint of standardization in phaser controls through the ages. But I want to point out that the distinct MACO guns, supposedly trusted old plasma blasters rather than 'em newfangled phase guns (compare the visual effects), still had the ability to stun, on two S3 occasions.
So soldiers armed to the teeth boarded the ship? Well, they met other soldiers armed to the teeth (and with better guns), in Starfleet uniforms
To be fair, while true about the VFX, it's also stated that the tactics and technology of the MACOs are two or three years ahead of Starfleet's in "Harbinger," despite their expertise arsing exclusively from simulated combat conducted on Earth. (The latter caveat may have some bearing on other points I will go on to make.)

Actually, only military organizations are permitted to arm ships these days. For example, in Canada, the Coast Guard is a civilian agency, and it's ships and personnel are not armed. With the exception of the ships sent to the North Pole, they are allowed one rifle, and it's only to be used against polar bears.
We are not talking about the situation "these days" though, but one more than a century from now, after protracted global war the likes of which we have never yet seen has ravaged the planet and destroyed most major cities and governments—thus throwing all the negotiated international conventions that govern these matters today out the proverbial window—and contact with advanced extraterrestrials has led to humanity's reunification under a new world government that might well make some different choices from its predecessors, perhaps especially under the pointedly (:vulcan:) guarded stewardship of said advanced extraterrestrials. (More on this coming later.)

If your argument is simply that any armed organization working in any capacity and for any purpose on behalf of a government constitutes a military force, irrespective of how it defines itself, then of course Starfleet meets those criteria and I must concede. But I think that definition too broad given the circumstances of the time period in question and the terms in which our characters are heard to describe them. (And even at present, the FBI/CIA/DSS could be seen as meeting these criteria, and they are civilian organizations that work in conjunction with the military and its objectives without being themselves part of it. Not that I am necessarily arguing Starfleet serves the same roles they do—indeed, there is is probably no present-day earthbound organization that would yield a truly adequate analogue to Starfleet—but it's worth pointing out.)

Rifles to fend off polar bears is exactly what I had in mind with my "Alaskan wilderness" comment, but when dealing with exploration on the scale at hand, into vast space already known by the time of NX-01's initial embarkation from Earth to contain a myriad of dangers that go far above and beyond predatory animals, including hostile aliens with advanced ships and weaponry, the degree of armament necessary to maintain the same level of protection must accordingly be greatly extended. I don't see why plasma cannons and spatial torpedoes need be taken as transcending what might be deemed essential for self-defense in the exploration of such an environment.

And Archer's ship had big guns, whereas we never heard of a MACO ship let alone one with big guns.
ENT makes much noise about NX-01 being the first exploration vessel of any worth in the UE Starfleet... In contrast, nothing is said about preceding combat vessels, for or against. And we indeed see that preceding vessels do exist, and have major combat capabilities.
I cannot recall even a single example of a Starfleet vessel that we can conclusively say both precedes in its construction and exceeds in its firepower and tactical capabilities NX-01—a vessel quite explicitly designed for the purpose of exploration, as you say—let alone one whose intended purpose was combat.

Unless there's something I'm overlooking, the only military conflict remotely involving Earth that we have mention of between the end of World War III and Starfleet's founding (presumably in the 2130s) are the "four wars" fought between "humankind" and the Kzinti in the late 21st century, according to "The Slaver Weapon" (TAS). We can't say much about them in terms of their scale, location, or duration—except that they must have occurred between 2063 (to preserve "first contact" for Earth; and we should probably even say 2067, when Friendship One was launched with us still having "no idea what was out there" in terms of aggressors) and let's say roughly 2075 (Sulu said the last of them ended "two hundred years" prior to 2269-70, which I think can be readily fudged a bit given how round a figure it is)—but they all ended in victory for the human side, seemingly resulting in the Treaty of Sirius, which forbade the Kzinti "any weapons at all beyond police vessels."

Since these conflicts clearly occurred after contact with the Vulcans, could it be that they had a role in brokering the peace—after all, despite their victory, humans would scarcely be in a position to enforce such a treaty when they'd only barely begun to leave their solar system to found colonies such as Terra Nova and Terra 10—and that not only the Kzinti side came away with restrictions imposed on it? Is it possible that, while quite evidently not being so extreme as to forbid all armaments as it did to the feline losers, the agreement disallowed Earth from having a standing space force that was explicitly military in nature, similarly to Japan after the World War II? Perhaps this is why, prior to tagging along with Archer, the Military Assault Command was restricted to Earth (which was free of war by the first decade of the 22nd century according to First Contact, thus explaining their combat experience being limited to simulations as aforementioned), and why Starfleet could only be founded as a nominally exploratory force under the aegis of the civilian-sounding United Earth Space Probe Agency, and armed ostensibly only for self-defense?

Now, all that being said, when I suggested some posts back that the process of Starfleet's inevitable militarization had "only just begun at the time of ENT's third season" this was probably an overstatement, because I'm sure that it could actually have been going on behind the scenes at some level and to some extent from its beginning. (I think when I put it that way I was thinking in terms of the bigger picture of where things would go beyond there, in Kirk's time and in Picard's.)

There will always be humans who wish more than anything to explore, and those who wish more than anything to remain secure, and even those who wish more than anything to make war. (The latter might be exemplified most stereotypically by Admiral Marcus in Into Darkness.) It's likely that just as they would constitute its ranks, examples of all three may well have played a role in influencing Starfleet's conception and development both before and after its founding, including the design of its vessels. There were probably those who foresaw more than others as to the eventual need for Starfleet to act as a military force. Section 31 is clear evidence of this.

In substantial part, in ENT our window onto this process is Jonathan Archer, and we see it unfolding largely through his eyes. He starts off as a wide-eyed explorer, who resents the Vulcans for "holding back" humanity (and in particular his father) and longs to penetrate the reaches of the unknown—yeah, man, very Freudian—but in the course of his explorations finds this unknown to be more full of threats than he or his planet are prepared to handle. Ultimately confronted with this in the form of the 9/11-esque Xindi attack on Earth, he becomes an advocate for integrating military concerns and operations with Starfleet's mission, and beyond that further he comes to see the pivotal value his organization has as an instrument of diplomacy in the formation of alliances among former rivals for mutual protection and benefit. Again, he surely could not have been the first to travel this path, but it's a journey we as viewers take with him through the show.

To bring this all back around to the main thread topic, Cochrane's achievement of warp flight coming at the particular moment it "happened" to was of paramount importance—no pun intended—in this all unfolding the way it did, as a pebble dropped into water creates propagating ripples, or dominoes fall one upon another, and thus is an event hugely significant not only to human history, but to the entire future depicted throughout the Star Trek mythos.

-MMoM:D
 
Last edited:
...we have numerous instances within the same period and beyond of it being used in the general sense familiar to us today.

This shouldn't stop there being a parallel specific usage. Indeed, that is what we should expect of all things military at all eras. Say, today the word "defense" has two completely different meanings: a specific one referring to the blocking of enemy attacks and essentially being the opposite of attack, and a generic one referring to the formal excuse of fighting including all sorts of attacks. That defense should be the synonym of war is an invention only a century old, yet that's what we have to live with now, confusing the hell out of any time-traveling 17th century soldiers.

OTOH, "military" being the opposite of "navy" is solid military terminology, again from about a century back. It has simply gone out of fashion; Trek could have it back with a vengeance.

There is nothing about it that attributes a sense of novelty to the presence of a stun setting itself, merely to the overall design of the weapon.

This I cannot comprehend. "There are two settings" is something Reed feels obligated to point out to Archer, adding "best not confuse them" as if he should assume Archer had not considered the implications before and had had no time to do so here. Surely all this has to be absolutely novel?

"Here are our new service revolvers. They have two positions for the safety, on and off. See how it works? This may save your life." is meaningful dialogue if previous service revolvers had no safeties (in some parallel universe where the term "service revolver" postdated safeties), but is meaningless dialogue of safeties already exist. And not even humorously meaningless, unless there's lots of heavily explicit nudging and winking going on.

And how can you say this goes against the "spirit" of the text in the same breath that you suggest interpretations of the "military" comments that go much more against their own likely intended meanings?

I didn't say I would consider it a problem if a few intentions got trampled. ;)

I cannot recall even a single example of a Starfleet vessel that we can conclusively say both precedes in its construction and exceeds in its firepower and tactical capabilities NX-01—a vessel quite explicitly designed for the purpose of exploration, as you say—let alone one whose intended purpose was combat.

The three ships seen in "The Expanse" all feature the modern red death ray armament that the NX-01 only belatedly acquires, and it would be mightily odd for them not to precede the NX-01. I mean, some ships did, assuredly - and it's not as if the trio we see would credibly be newer than the NX-01 (or else they would also have warp 5 engines and be sent against the Xindi).

Yet without warp 5 engines, Earth cannot explore. It nevertheless has a Starfleet before it has the warp five engine. OTOH, it also has "Neptune class survey ships", potential contemporaries to the NX-01 (why else would the chair design be common to these two but apparently not others?). But surveying never was the same as exploring in Trek: the former was for Oberth class ships, the latter for heroes.

Unless there's something I'm overlooking, the only military conflict remotely involving Earth that we have mention of between the end of World War III and Starfleet's founding (presumably in the 2130s) are the "four wars" fought between "humankind" and the Kzinti in the late 21st century, according to "The Slaver Weapon" (TAS).

...Or, since a time reference as vague as "two centuries ago" is so deliciously malleable, perhaps we saw some of these wars in ENT, with the feline Xindi being responsible for some of the lesser-known attacks that provide the bulk of the dating but the repto-humanoid ones committing the most famous one that is something of a dating outlier? :devil:

Since these conflicts clearly occurred after contact with the Vulcans, could it be that they had a role in brokering the peace—after all, despite their victory, humans would scarcely be in a position to enforce such a treaty when they'd only barely begun to leave their solar system to found colonies such as Terra Nova and Terra 10—and that not only the Kzinti side came away with restrictions imposed on it?

This sounds very attractive. Of course, Earth would do its best to out-Kzinti the Kzinti there, acquiring fighting hardware under all sorts of pretenses (see Germany between the World Wars) and standing in readiness to pick up a fight, any fight, to restore their fighting fitness and freedom of operation.

Perhaps this is why, prior to tagging along with Archer, the Military Assault Command was restricted to Earth

Was it, now? We get references to Earthly assignments, but also to nonspecific places such as the Janus Loop. There doesn't appear to be a direct reference to them being restricted to any specific theater let alone not sailing to the stars - they just don't embark on Starfleet ships all that often. Perhaps because they have their own? They do seem to have some skill in operating starships and their weaponry.

If anything, the Military might be assumed to be extensively predeployed at colonies and whatnot, because of the slowness of previously available means of transport. Their Assault branch might be more mobile, though, by implication of the name and by evidence of their prowess and use.

why Starfleet could only be founded as a nominally exploratory force under the aegis of the civilian-sounding United Earth Space Probe Agency,

A fascinating interpretation as well! Odd, then, that there should be zero actual mention of UESPA in ENT, least of all in connection with Starfleet... Perhaps our heroes are so ashamed of the humiliating arrangement that they never bring it up?

In substantial part, in ENT our window onto this process is Jonathan Archer, and we see it unfolding largely through his eyes. He starts off as a wide-eyed explorer, who resents the Vulcans for "holding back" humanity (and in particular his father) and longs to penetrate the reaches of the unknown—yeah, man, very Freudian—but in the course of his explorations finds this unknown to be more full of threats than he or his planet are prepared to handle.

Remarkably, Archer is a poor representative of Starfleet in many senses. He embarks on a mission he was not chosen for - essentially, he deserts after delivering Klaang, to the great pleasure of his superiors and the chagrin of the Vulcans. This was not preplanned in full, but quite possibly intended anyway.

Archer being in charge of the NX-01 mission, both the one outlined to the Vulcans and the one actually undertaken, is a great departure from what Starfleet has been doing so far. We could just as well assume that the wide-eyed exploration is the novel thing, and that merciless blasting of bug-eyed monsters is what most of Starfleet has been doing until then.

To bring this all back around to the main thread topic, Cochrane's achievement of warp flight coming at the particular moment it "happened" to was of paramount importance—no pun intended—in this all unfolding the way it did, as a pebble dropped into water creates propagating ripples, or dominoes fall one upon another, and thus is an event hugely significant not only to human history, but to the entire future depicted throughout the Star Trek mythos.

...Meaning that "Cochrane's warp drive concept" need not have been special in any way; it would all be in the timing.

Would the heroes and their kinsmen realize half of that? Or do they see mankind's skyrocketing to prominence as a manifest destiny where Cochrane just exemplifies the conquering spirit of humanity, rather than being the one man who made the entire thing possible in the first place?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Is a Starfleet court-martial the same as a military one?
Court martial is a purely military term. There is no such thing as a "civilian court martial." It can only exist in a military setting. Also Starfleet has a Judge Advocate General, even on TNG. Such a position does not exist outside of the military.
- When did Starfleet have it's own penal system? Looking at Memory Alpha, the only references are to Federation penal facilities.
Ro Laren was sentenced to a Starfleet stockade (which is another exclusively military term), Michael Eddington and Quark's cousin Gaila were serving their sentences on Starfleet starbases, Arik Soong was in a Starflert prison facility.
The only example of Starfleet guarding an embassy I recall was in ENT, in an era when Starfleet was Earth's most advanced operation in space. (Also, Starfleet works with the Federation in diplomacy.)
Actually the MACOs were more advanced than Starfleet (Archer says so in Harbinger) and it would not have been any more effort to transport them to Vulcan to handle the embassy security. Since the MACOs are Earth's genuine military that admits it's military, one really has to wonder why they aren't handling the duty that's always a military's, and why that job is being handled by the "explorers" instead.
But is it meant for war?
For what other reason is a ship going to be designed "for combat?"
"Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. It's five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before." (Kirk, TOS)

Is Starfleet paramilitary? Yes, it has the structure and capabilities for combat when needed. Is it a de facto military? I don't see how, esp. since we have onscreen confirmation that it's not.
While watching TOS, especially season 1 it is very clear the writers were basing Starfleet on the US Navy, to the extent it can reasonably be called the Navy in Space. The references to it being non-military in the other shows come from Roddenberry suddenly feeling military to be a dirty word in his later years, and then for some reason Berman and now Abrams are sticking to that, despite the fact most of Roddenberry's other sacred cows have since been done away with.

But also worth tossing in, we've seen Starfleet captains and admirals officiating weddings. Military officers are the only people aside from religious officials and Justices of the Peace who can do that.
 
I viewed Starfleet as legally a military/navy with exploration as their primary purpose; the weapons mainly for self defense against known and unknown enemies. The philosophy of the officer corps would be; "We're explorers, not soldiers!". Certainly in most appearances in TNG Starfleet occupies a role similar the UN and NATO "Peacekeeping forces": The mission is not to engage in war but to use the threat of force to maintain the "peace". There is no doubt however that just like the UN, Starfleet could engage in war if needed - such as the Dominion War.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top