The Most Toys...... Oh and Transporters.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The part that doesn't square is that he was not open with Riker afterward.

In what way?

Data is a fully sentient being. The fact that he is an android doesn't mean he can't be evasive, or choose not to tell the full truth, when the situation warrants it. And let's face it, in this situation, everybody knows Data fired anyway, so what POINT would there be for Data to elaborate on it?

Riker knows Data fired. Data knows he fired. Fajo is still alive (so Data didn't actually kill him, and they can subsequently make a legal arrest). Anything beyond that is simply not important.

 

[Paradise City]

Data killing Fajo might be a legal grey area when it comes to self defense but no court would convict him under those circumstances, even if he weren't the main character of a television series. If somebody kidnapped you and held you against your will you would be justified using lethal force to defend yourself. Kidnapping and coercion is a form of violence.

Data pulling the trigger did square with his program. We have evidence from which episode I can't remember when Data is talking about his formative years that Data's circuits form new and different connections much like neurons and axons, so it makes sense that his circuits would adjust in a situation that warranted killing. The part that doesn't square is that he was not open with Riker afterward.

Throughout this episode he's very categorical about what he can and can't do in moral terms at the behest of his programming. He's not making any qualifications or exceptions about this. He's constrained by certain stipulations included in his program and the strong subtext is that he exceeds the normal parameters of his programming by pulling the trigger on Fajo. That's what makes the conclusion of the episode so engaging. He doesn't disclose it to Riker because he was traumatised by it, doesn't want to relive it and wants to return to being Data. He's lying to himself more than he lies to Riker. Again, this is Data transcending his circuitry in a subtle way.

 

[Triskelion]

Data killing Fajo might be a legal grey area when it comes to self defense but no court would convict him under those circumstances, even if he weren't the main character of a television series. If somebody kidnapped you and held you against your will you would be justified using lethal force to defend yourself. Kidnapping and coercion is a form of violence.

Not necessarily. For example, if someone breaks into your house, sees you standing there with a shotgun, turns around and leaves - you can't shoot his back. Lethal force is justified only as a means of self-protection only insofar as the threat is direct; the moment the threat is under control, you are now liable for your own excess violence in a situation that is otherwise under control.

Data had the drop on Fajo. The use of violence here is very much arguable in a court of law, and not a clear case of self defense. And that's just for civilians! Let alone members of official organizations that are constrained by clear cut policies covering such contingencies. Data's innocence here is by no means assured.

Personally I'm a little unclear on the area between free will and being constrained by programming. I rather think if anything constrains Data it would be Starfleet regulations - not the ability to choose to pull a trigger or not based on some kind of ethical limiter. While I can see that he might have ethical inhibitors, physically prohibiting unethical actions - Soong would have been smart enough to recognize that not all ethical dilemmas have a clear answer; and would have programmed Data with the power of making "the best determination" - an override mechanism.

I mean, just for example - Fajo killing Varia. Data would have no problem killing Fajo in that moment if he'd been able. But what if it were Varia holding the disruptor, and firing on Fajo? Would Data's programming have forced him to defend Fajo?

There is enough gray area here to allow the AI to make a choice. If he were not so empowered, he could not have been a Starfleet officer in the first place, but would have been a toaster and dissassembled by Maddox at the very latest.

If anything, this episode may illustrate that Data's programming/free will and Starfleet regulations are not synonymous.

If I were Fajo I would have an army of lawyers crawling up Data's output port.

 

[Jedman67]

Data didn't say the phaser misfired. He said, and I quote, "Perhaps something occurred during transport." THAT IS NOT A LIE. It's being evasive, yes. But it is not a false statement.

That's splitting hairs. It's a lie of omission or misleading - like the Aes Sedai in Wheel of Time are forbidden by 'oath' to "Speak no word that is not true." The author makes a point of showing how they can twist the truth into a pretzel without actually 'lying'.

Did Fajo not tell anyone "By the way, did Data mention he tried to gun me down in cold blood? You might want to run a diagnostic on the killing machine? Oh, did he not tell you? Why do you suppose he saw fit to lie about that in his official report?"

Data was a prisoner/hostage attempting to escape. His only means of escape (at that moment) was to kill the killer holding him hostage. The disruptor did not have a stun setting and Fajo had a personal forcefield which protected him against being subdued physically. Data certainly could claim he had no other choice except to continue being a prisoner.

Data killing Fajo might be a legal grey area when it comes to self defense but no court would convict him under those circumstances, even if he weren't the main character of a television series. If somebody kidnapped you and held you against your will you would be justified using lethal force to defend yourself. Kidnapping and coercion is a form of violence.

Data pulling the trigger did square with his program. We have evidence from which episode I can't remember when Data is talking about his formative years that Data's circuits form new and different connections much like neurons and axons, so it makes sense that his circuits would adjust in a situation that warranted killing. The part that doesn't square is that he was not open with Riker afterward.

Throughout this episode he's very categorical about what he can and can't do in moral terms at the behest of his programming. He's not making any qualifications or exceptions about this. He's constrained by certain stipulations included in his program and the strong subtext is that he exceeds the normal parameters of his programming by pulling the trigger on Fajo. That's what makes the conclusion of the episode so engaging. He doesn't disclose it to Riker because he was traumatised by it, doesn't want to relive it and wants to return to being Data. He's lying to himself more than he lies to Riker. Again, this is Data transcending his circuitry in a subtle way.

Hmm, interesting point. My suggestion about inhibitions is similar to a human brain. We are "programmed" by our parents and schools and religions that certain behaviors are appropriate and certain behaviors are inappropriate. Most individuals without any military or police training trapped in a hostage situation like Data would have to overcome tremendous behavioral inhibitions before being able to kill another person. Data has the advantage of military training but still has the "social" inhibition.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Not necessarily. For example, if someone breaks into your house, sees you standing there with a shotgun, turns around and leaves - you can't shoot his back. Lethal force is justified only as a means of self-protection only insofar as the threat is direct; the moment the threat is under control, you are now liable for your own excess violence in a situation that is otherwise under control.

Data had the drop on Fajo.

Data had the disruptor or but Fajo was holding the key to his cage.

Here's a better example. Suppose somebody kidnaps me and locks me in his basement. I manage to get hold of a shotgun. I point it at him and say 'Let me out or I'll shoot.' He refuses, and says 'Put down the gun, and if you try to escape again I'll murder an innocent person.' In this case, pulling the trigger is an act of self defense against unlawful incarceration.

Unlawful incarceration is an act of aggression and Fajo put him in a position where killing him appeared to be the only defense.

 

[Paradise City]

Data with his speed and agility would be able to physically incapacitate him without killing him. He doesn't need to shoot. Or is that force field that protects Fajos person still on?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

In what way?

Data is a fully sentient being. The fact that he is an android doesn't mean he can't be evasive, or choose not to tell the full truth, when the situation warrants it. And let's face it, in this situation, everybody knows Data fired anyway, so what POINT would there be for Data to elaborate on it?

Riker knows Data fired. Data knows he fired. Fajo is still alive (so Data didn't actually kill him, and they can subsequently make a legal arrest). Anything beyond that is simply not important.

This is the kind of social subtlety Data has problems with. He thinks O'Brien will be happy his fiancé canceled the wedding. The only motive he has for lying to Riker is self protection which if he cared about Clues would have gone very different.

 

[Jedman67]

From Real Life, a few days ago a strange man entered an apartment and threatened to rape and attack the woman living there. While he did start hitting her and tearing off her clothes, she managed to call her husband and tell him she was being raped. The husband rushed home and confronted the attacker by the elevator (him having run away when she called her husband). He started beating the attacker with a tire iron and ended up beating the would-be rapist to death.

Did the husband commit a crime? http://nypost.com/2016/05/31/husband-charged-for-beating-would-be-rapist-to-death/

 

[Jedman67]

This is the kind of social subtlety Data has problems with. He thinks O'Brien will be happy his fiancé canceled the wedding. The only motive he has for lying to Riker is self protection which if he cared about Clues would have gone very different.

Yeah...that episode was awful. Except for Data tap dancing

 

[Timo]

Data would be at a somewhat unusual position here in no doubt being well versed in UFP law, as well as his special position within it. He has been pulling off legal aces from his sleeves on other occasions, after all. Whatever solution he came up with, he would be likely to have calculated the optimum one like any good chessmaster, being aware of the consequences in all the alternate scenarios. It would be difficult to find a comparable case from among the likes of the one quoted above!

OTOH, Kivas Fajo was no android, but he had made a career out of skirting the law, and might well have all the scenarios sorted out as well. It would be a battle of legal wits, with Data indeed cornered the best Fajo could manage. And beyond that, it would be a battle of philosophies, with Data possibly choosing a self-sacrificial approach Fajo could never have foreseen.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Triskelion]

The point is that Data's unwillingness to divulge the truth indicates that he knew he was acting unethically. He crossed the line of Starfleet regs, and lawyers would have a field day on him in a general court martial. Ethically arguable that he was justified? Sure. Also tantamount to admitting guilt in his subsequent coverup.

The questions here are not ideoligical but limited by how Starfleet regulations define righteous vs unrighteous kill. If Data was acting within regs, there would be no reason to lie. He may have done the right thing, but it could have, perhaps should have, cost him his commission. Either the attempted murder, or the lie.

And at that point, Data was not killing to escape. He had gained control of the situation. He didn't say "Get out of the way if my escape or I'll shoot"; he said, very calmly, "I cannot permit this to continue." He was killing as judge, jury and executioner of Fajo. Murder. Hang the consequences.

Right, wrong - but most definitely arguable in court.

Laws of force usually extend only as far as gaining control of a situation; they don't accommodate wanton overkill. Police are even more constrained by minimal use of force regulations and subject to internal investigations and penalties.

Right, wrong, what does the law in the books say? That's the final word.

So the episode does raise some interesting questions regarding AI ethics - with violable (?) programming constraints, operating within external regulations (maybe), in the face of gray area ethical dilemmas.

So what exactly made him pull the trigger?

 

[Timo]

The point is that Data's unwillingness to divulge the truth indicates that he knew he was acting unethically.

Or against Starfleet regs, which for Data may be a completely different thing. Yes, he volunteered into Starfleet, but he occasionally still has ideas and ideals at odds with Starfleet ones.

The thing is, we don't even know whether killing Fajo would have been against the regs. Riker commits apparent murder, or killing of perps without trial, at least twice - and he makes no effort to hide the fact and gets into no known trouble from it. He clearly carries the license to be the judge, jury and executioner within some parameters we aren't capable of understanding.

Many a misdeed by Riker does get him into trouble, either into ship-internal discipline or even courts of law. That the gunning down of Yuta in "Vengeance Factor" or the clone in "Up the Long Ladder" would fall into some sort of grey area where colleagues silently nod and pretend to be looking elsewhere doesn't appear likely at all. Rather, they are examples of Starfleet officers being entitled to kill people who aren't an immediate threat but do represent a threat in the long term. Yuta can't stop being a murderer, and you can't disarm her, not even with a machete - even unlegging, decapitating or atorsoing wouldn't do the trick, as she can and will kill with the tip of her appendix if need be. And the clone growing up apparently threatens some fundamental right of Riker's.

Perhaps killing Fajo would not require "snap judgement" of any sort, but would automatically be justified under some clause that is as clear-cut as with the Riker cases? We're dealing with Military Police here, in the worst possible meaning of the word combination; it probably has to be a step down from Judge Dredd.

So what exactly made him pull the trigger?

In the above interpretation, some metric going from eleven to twelve and activating the "kill him and get the medal" cause. That he seemingly feels less than proud about it is only because he's Data, incapable of pride. That he doesn't ask for Riker to go there and finish the job is only because the metric went from twelve down to eight or so with the arrival of the cavalry. Mechanical, automatic and legal all the way.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It would help if we knew what Data put in his official report to Starfleet. He could have fully admitted what he'd done when he made the report. His immediate words to Riker after beaming back to the ship, don't mean he was fully intent on covering it up all along.

And legally speaking, the situation would be a lot more ambiguous if Fajo had not flat-out said that he would simply kill someone else. Sure, Data had control of HIS OWN situation, but Fajo had just threatened to kill other innocent people. And Data knew Fajo was capable and intent on doing so. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if, in between Data's escape and Fajo's arrest, Fajo actually DID kill someone else on his ship (possibly flying into a rage after Data was beamed away).

So Data might not have killed to escape, he killed to save other people from immediate danger (and with somebody like Fajo, yes, the danger was obviously immediate).

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

From Real Life, a few days ago a strange man entered an apartment and threatened to rape and attack the woman living there. While he did start hitting her and tearing off her clothes, she managed to call her husband and tell him she was being raped. The husband rushed home and confronted the attacker by the elevator (him having run away when she called her husband). He started beating the attacker with a tire iron and ended up beating the would-be rapist to death.

Did the husband commit a crime? http://nypost.com/2016/05/31/husband-charged-for-beating-would-be-rapist-to-death/

I think for this situation the husband may well have acted in good faith but beating the guy to death went a bit overboard. Emotions run high in these kind of things so I don't know could you plead some kind of mitigating circumstance?

I'd like to hope the Judge lets him off.

 

[Jedman67]

Or against Starfleet regs, which for Data may be a completely different thing. Yes, he volunteered into Starfleet, but he occasionally still has ideas and ideals at odds with Starfleet ones.

The thing is, we don't even know whether killing Fajo would have been against the regs. Riker commits apparent murder, or killing of perps without trial, at least twice - and he makes no effort to hide the fact and gets into no known trouble from it. He clearly carries the license to be the judge, jury and executioner within some parameters we aren't capable of understanding.

I haven't seen "The Vengeance Factor" that I can recall; based on your description she posed an active threat to the crew and could not be arrested without risking the lives of crewmen. Perhaps the only way to stop her was to kill her.

Perhaps killing Fajo would not require "snap judgement" of any sort, but would automatically be justified under some clause that is as clear-cut as with the Riker cases? We're dealing with Military Police here, in the worst possible meaning of the word combination; it probably has to be a step down from Judge Dredd.

It's a judgement call made by a Starfleet officer. The circumstances portrayed is Data is being held hostage with no way to restrain the captor. This was his only way to prevent more killing by Fajo.

In the above interpretation, some metric going from eleven to twelve and activating the "kill him and get the medal" cause. That he seemingly feels less than proud about it is only because he's Data, incapable of pride. That he doesn't ask for Riker to go there and finish the job is only because the metric went from twelve down to eight or so with the arrival of the cavalry. Mechanical, automatic and legal all the way.

Timo Saloniemi

Definitely not. He made a value judgement just like any person would.

 

[Jedman67]

I think for this situation the husband may well have acted in good faith but beating the guy to death went a bit overboard. Emotions run high in these kind of things so I don't know could you plead some kind of mitigating circumstance?

I'd like to hope the Judge lets him off.

He shouldn't get the book thrown at him, but there definitely should be a real punishment. Society cannot allow vigilantes, which is basically what the husband was. If there was no immediate danger, then one should only use the minimum amount of force necessary to hold the person until law enforcement arrives.

 

[Timo]

I haven't seen "The Vengeance Factor" that I can recall; based on your description she posed an active threat to the crew and could not be arrested without risking the lives of crewmen. Perhaps the only way to stop her was to kill her.

There are two important elements to this that make the threat non-acute. One, Riker had already forced the innocent-looking killer Yuta to her knees with nonlethal phaser bursts, and keeping on doing so would have allowed the intended victim to be whisked to safety. Two, as she was engineered to be a biological precision weapon, Yuta was lethal only to her intended set of victims, not to people outside her hit list; Riker could have wrestled her down (at least after a few more stun bursts, and some help from his crewmates present at the scene) and restrained her for good. Any immediacy of threat was thus carefully eliminated from the scene, whether the writer intended it or not.

However, there are two other elements that make the threat unstoppable outside the murder option. One, Yuta had been programmed with the need to kill everybody on her hit list (which was down to one man now), and apparently could not have any sort of a life that would not involve attempting to kill. Two, Yuta was extremely lethal to her intended victims, virtually immortal, and capable of shrugging off the standard Starfleet/law enforcement response of stun guns; the odds of her eventually succeeding were high unless her life was ended one way (death) or another (eternally clawing at the padded walls of her cell).

Riker chose to end her life with vaporization rather than permanent locking up. That this was not considered objectionable by anybody involved (not even Yuta!) tells volumes about Starfleet rules and UFP laws (even if those volumes are on a language rather alien to us!).

This was his only way to prevent more killing by Fajo.

The problem is, the audience knows this is not true. Data is a one-man army: starting out unarmed, he subdues an entire nation in "Ensigns of Command"! Fajo could be left unharmed aboard a ship torn to nonfunctional pieces, waiting for pickup by the authorities. Fajo could be immobilized. Fajo could be rendered unconscious. Fajo could be killed in such a fashion that resurrection by 24th century medicine would be trivial. Fajo could be tortured until he gave up his evil ways and wet himself in terror at the very thought of having to confront Data on the issue.

The episode would work well were Data replaced by a less powerful character, with the same ethical limitations. TNG had none handy, alas.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[tharpdevenport]

You know, thinking about this episode, which is about a bazillion times better than Nemesis, just now, it made me wonder some things:

Data didn't just fire a weapon to stop Fajo, he did two things:

1. He chose to fire instead of putting it aside and taken Fajo down (with what ever force he may have deiced to use), since Fajo was now unarmed.

2. He chose to fire on Fajo with a painfully dealy weapon. Overkill, as some might say.


One wonders what the outcome would have been had Fajo simply beaten one of his people to death.

 

[Makarov]

I would like this episode a lot better if Data's escape came earlier and then he admitted to attempting to kill him and they explored it a bit. This is the weakest way to end the episode, data doesn't actually face the ramifications of his action in any way.

 

[TardisTrek]

I wonder if the general consensus is that Data's decision to murder was purely his programmed logic, or rather it was anger/revenge. I also wonder if the half-lie was simply intended by the producers to cast doubt on his ability to murder, or if it was also intended to portray that Data has evolved enough malice to both kill and lie.