What if...Season 4 was one of change?

[Clym]

Other Treks got away with stuff VOY would've been condemned for. They could undo bad changes to their characters quickly and casually and no one cared.

If Voyager had done something like the Xindi arc and then found a safe port in the finale, and then have the next season premiere take place a month or two after that with the ship fully repaired...they'd still get complaints with the audience completely forgetting how much they enjoyed the prior story-line.

That Solar Flare trick Crusher used to destroy a massive Borg vessel that was equal to a Cube? If Voyager had used that to even DAMAGE a Borg Cube there'd be Hell to pay over how the Borg should've easily survived a Solar Flare with no damage at all.

we criticise the other Treks as well when they use reset buttons and contrivances, it's just that Voyager was nothing BUT reset buttons and contrivances. There was nothing else to it, It was the most egrigious offender (at least until Enterprise came along).

your continued baffling defence of Voyager makes you sound like a desperate swivel-eyed apologist!

 

[Anwar]

we criticise the other Treks as well when they use reset buttons and contrivances,

I've never seen anyone criticize the end of "Sacrifice of Angels" or plot twists in "Best of Both Worlds".

 

[Capn Nick]

I've never seen anyone criticize the end of "Sacrifice of Angels" or plot twists in "Best of Both Worlds".

Funny enough "Sacrifice of Angels" was the episode that made me stop watching DS9 for good the first time (though I watched the whole thing a few years later).

P.S. I will stand for no criticism about Best of Both Worlds! ;-)

 

[Clym]

I've never seen anyone criticize the end of "Sacrifice of Angels" or plot twists in "Best of Both Worlds".

I recall a number of people criticising the Deus Ex Machina resolution to Sacrifice of Angels. But the rest of the 7 episode arc was mostly brilliant. Voyager never came close to that level of drama and excitement

 

[Anwar]

I recall a number of people criticising the Deus Ex Machina resolution to
Sacrifice of Angels.

I've never seen one.

But the rest of the 7 episode arc was mostly brilliant. Voyager never came close to that level of drama and excitement

"Living Witness", "The Void", "Scorpion". And they didn't need to tell a big stupid 100-part mess to do it either.

Of course, no one cared about anything Voyager did right. All they cared about was what it did wrong, no matter how insignificant.

 

[Clym]

^ you pick three good episodes out of 180. Voyager should have been like The Void, Scorpion and Year of Hell from start to finish. That was the premise of the series which the writers then reneged on

About 5 out of 25 Voy epsidoes per season were better than average or good. That does not make for a respectable series. DS9 had its weaker episodes but nowhere near as many, and even at its worst, the DS9 writers always at least tried to do something different and innovative

 

[Anwar]

^ you pick three good episodes out of 180. Voyager should have been like The Void, Scorpion and Year of Hell from start to finish.

Critically panned? Hell, Scorpion is considered worse than "Code of Honor" these days.

DS9 had its weaker episodes but nowhere near as many, and even at its worst, the DS9 writers always at least tried to do something different and innovative

DS9 had advantages and resources that VOY was denied.

 

[Clym]

DS9 had advantages and resources that VOY was denied.

like what? Voy had a large budget and a virtually guaranteed 7 year run (more than most TV series get - think of what happened to poor Babylon 5).

what resources did DS9 have that were denied to Voyager?

If anything DS9 was disadvantaged because it's no secret that Berman hated it, and the Paramount suits continually interefered with the directions the writers wanted to go in, such as curtailing the arc storytelling and darker/war aspects.

DS9 had better writers and actors, and that reflects the superior quality of the show

 

[Anwar]

what resources did DS9 have that were denied to Voyager?

DS9 had access to the rest of the established Trekverse and was stationary AND mobile, meaning they could stay in one place OR travel around. VOY had none of that. They could never flesh out their surroundings or have recurring characters or have any political stories, etc.

If anything DS9 was disadvantaged because it's no secret that Berman hated it

That's a lie Ira Behr made up because he's a whiner, Berman didn't hate the show nor did it receive interference. Especially compared to how VOY was micromanaged every step of the way.

DS9 had better writers and actors, and that reflects the superior quality of the show

DS9 got kid's gloves treatment compared to VOY, it wasn't bashed every step of the way.

 

[stardream]

We have to remember that it was UPN that changed the focus of Voyager. Not the writers. They wanted more conflict but the higher ups ruled it out...probably because at the time DS9 was NOT considered much of a success. It's funny looking back on it now because the show has held up so well but at the time, the show got a lot of criticisms for not being 'real' Star Trek or not holding true to the vision. The ratings also started to dwindle when it became serialized.

I think there should have been more continuity and more wear and tear on Voyager but I'm glad it didn't' go darker. We have to keep in mind that Voyager was being shown in tandem to DS9. Year of Hell, The Void etc being shown against the Dominion War and the more 'gritty' landscape of DS9 was at the time probably considered as having too much 'negativity' in what was supposed to be a 'hopeful brighter view of the future' franchise so someone somewhere decided that Voyager should 'lighten up' and become essentially TNG-lite. Looking back I'm glad they did it at the time. I probably would have stopped watching both had they been some sort of pre- BSG (and I liked the first two years of BSG...the last two I endured.)

Concerning Tom Paris, I think Robbie McNeil was also a bit surprised at the direction they took with his character. He wanted to be the malcontent but apparently Neelix wasn't working out as they hoped as the comic relief (although he had his moments) so they lightened Paris up and for some reason they made him into a sort of human jack of all trades character. Seven and the Doctor also fall into that sort of 'Swiss Army knife' characterization but she was Borg and he was a hologram. Paris was a human who could apparently do a lot of jobs and do them well. (listen to the guy at Sci-fi Debris. He has a running joke about Paris doing everything that is not his job). He didn't get a lot of characterization but they could stick him in a scene with any other character and make it work. Unlike others McNeil didn't complain about this shift, probably because he was learning so much behind the camera which launched his second career as a director.

Some wonder why I like both DS9 and Voyager as if that constitutes some sort of mental dysfunction but I think of DS9 as a nice dinner in a fine restaurant where I'm served all my favorite foods. Voyager is my favorite chocolate dessert. I like both..but in different ways and for different reasons.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I've never seen anyone criticize the end of "Sacrifice of Angels" or plot twists in "Best of Both Worlds".

BoBW part 2 was a bit of a let down compared to part 1.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Some wonder why I like both DS9 and Voyager as if that constitutes some sort of mental dysfunction but I think of DS9 as a nice dinner in a fine restaurant where I'm served all my favorite foods. Voyager is my favorite chocolate dessert. I like both..but in different ways and for different reasons.

I don't really like the other Trek shows but comparing Voyager to a chocolate desert is a pretty nice metaphor

 

[stardream]

I remember criticisms of Sacrifice of Angels. Deux Ex Machina and lazy writing and all that.

I didn't agree with it because the decision to use the Prophets had consequences.

 

[Anwar]

I remember criticisms of Sacrifice of Angels. Deux Ex Machina and lazy writing and all that.

I didn't agree with it because the decision to use the Prophets had consequences.

What consequences, exactly?

 

[stardream]

What consequences, exactly?

I assumed Sisko being forced to go live with them for a while in the season finale was part of that.

 

[LJones41]

An idea occurred to me reading another thread, but what if the PTB had decided to really shake things up in S4, by axing a couple of the actors throughout?

In "Scorpion" they go ahead and kill off Kim, bringing Seven onboard and having her essentially taking over for him at Ops (in a proper Starfleet uniform). During this episode, Neelix then starts training with Tuvok to become a security officer. Then in "Year of Hell", Chakotay sacrifices himself to save Voyager and the timeline.

Tuvok becomes the new First Officer with Neelix finding himself at Tactical. Whilst down in the mess hall, Chell becomes a recurring character who is the ship's new cook (who wouldn't want 'plasma leek soup'?). Kes takes on more of the role of ship's morale officer/counsellor as well as being the medical assistant.

What is the point of this?

 

[LJones41]

that was Voyager's problem. The writers/TPTB didn't have the courage to do anything different or make any changes like DS9 did. They wanted Voy to remain exactly the same from beginning to end with no consequences and minimal continuity.

The series that you had just described is not the one I remember. I can recall a good deal of changes in regard to the cast and situation over the years.

Yes, "VOYAGER" had its flaws. Unfortunately, so did the other Trek shows, including "DEEP SPACE NINE". Frankly, I consider "NEXT GENERATION", "DEEP SPACE NINE" and "VOYAGER" to be the best of the five shows . . . on an equal level. But they had their flaws. I feel that "DEEP SPACE NINE" had the potential to be the best of all five. But . . . the writing undermined that potential.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

What is the point of this?

A hypothetical look at how to get rid of two very dull and drab characters and move the show forward with the potential for greater character development.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

I think that season 4 was a season of change because from there, ST: Voyager stopped to talk about an ensemble (I include the the vessel as a character so much, without it, the show woundn't exist) lost in the middle of nowhere and which try by all means to return home, to turn almost around 3 characters (Janeway, Seven and The Doctor) who took things in hand . Of course, their performers were excellent actors but I think that, by making this choice, the producers didn't respect the spirit of Star Trek and how a vessel crowded with different beings, unite against the oddities of the universe and make more or less warm meetings throughout their mission/journey.

 

[Anwar]

Well, TOS was only really about 3 characters.