Challenge for all atheists

[Amaris]

Thing is, even though I think Christianity is a crock, I think there is more to us than what we perceive. I know it sounds wonky. But you can't destroy matter, only change its form. Who knows what is next for us?

Yeah, I should clarify a bit, too. I do sincerely hope that there is something beyond this existence for us. It doesn't have to be an afterlife per se, but I would hate to find out (or not, actually) that our short short short lives and all of the self-awareness, the universe that learns about itself just vanishes into the aether with nothing to show for it.

Frankly I think it makes life more meaningful to have no afterlife. I was raised around people for whom the idea that there was no afterlife, whether it be heaven or reincarnation or a spiritual plane just didn't compute. All kinds of people, christians and newagers and regular non-religious people who still viewed the afterlife as a fact, albeit one we didn't know too much about. Taking comfort in it does make it easier not to wrestle with one's current life, I mean it's fleeting right? What's going down today, it's just a small part of our eternal existence, lets keep that in perspective! That perspective can change our entire relationship with our life and while I have no wish to sow doubts or take away people's comfort on the matter I know that seeing my life as being finite, there being no grander scheme that will make today seem but a passing moment has changed how I approach my choices in some surprising ways. I like thinking like this. I like taking eternity out of the picture.

I am happily agnostic about an afterlife, more apathy-ostic than anything because it is no longer important to me to exist after I die in any way.

For me it has more to do with information death than anything. So we die, and everything we have gathered, that hasn't been recorded in some fashion, is now gone. All of our joys and hopes, our thoughts and feelings, it just feels like such a tragedy to me. Even the universe has a death, it seems, so trying to cope with that after decades of faith was, and still is, something I have wrestled with time and time again. In short, I don't want to die, especially because I feel I haven't yet lived.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Well you can always write it all down.. I mean we read the wonderful and fascinating thoughts of people long dead.

 

[TrickyDickie]

My wife and I believe in an afterlife and even reincarnation (things pointing in the direction that we may have been Maude Adams and Charles Frohman keep popping up constantly and to such a high level that coincidence just doesn't come close to explaining it all), but we just no longer believe in a grand overseer.

It may be some kind of a 'natural' process that humans just don't understand as of right now.

Quantum physics research is also delving into the concept that time is a lot different than what we are able to perceive. One idea that has been raised is that humans in what we call the future have advanced to a level where they are able to go back through all of history and preserve the consciousnesses of all individuals who lived.

As Spock said, "There are many possibilities."

There is absolutely no reason to believe that an afterlife is governed by someone's invented, wrathful god.

 

[Kemaiku]

That sounds no more sane or rational than the rest of it. Like the plot of a bad scifi pulp from the 70's.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

...I realise I'm not going to convince you to change your beliefs here but you need to realise that others do believe differently and manage to be decent, honest, moral people. All without the need of some threat of consequences if they "sin" - but simply because they have a desire to do good. They do not deserve the level of atack they are getting.

Arguably neither do you, but you are expecting a large group of star trek fans, people who almost by definition will opt for reason over faith every time to accept some pretty terribly thought out and presented arguments and threats....

Spot, I rarely discuss religion on forums or social media, because the conversations too often turn ugly (with both the religious folks and the atheists to blame). But I have to say this:

Many, if not most, of us who call ourselves Christians try to do the right and moral thing for the same basic reason that you do -- because we believe it is right and moral, not out of fear. And I find much of what the OP has said to be quite... disturbing.

Ziyal
M.Div.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Many, if not most, of us who call ourselves Christians try to do the right and moral thing for the same basic reason that you do -- because we believe it is right and moral, not out of fear.

Exactly. Fear is not the way to spread the Gospel of Christ. We should be preaching love, not wrath.

And I find much of what the OP has said to be quite... disturbing.

I totally heard that in a Vader voice.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I believe that could be explained with the tower of Babel incident where people tried to build a building that would lead to Heaven, and God confused their languages and scattered them. Apparently He must have changed their physical appearances as well.

"Apparently"? Sounds like fanon rather than canon to me. I was under the impression you weren't allow to add to the word of God.

 

[TrickyDickie]

That sounds no more sane or rational than the rest of it. Like the plot of a bad scifi pulp from the 70's.

When I consider an idea like that, I don't automatically bring to mind images of some kind of Frankenstein reanimation sequence or something out of 'Spock's Brain' or whatever.

I can at least imagine a scenario where it could be done in a sane, rational, benevolent way. It would be better than dealing with a wrathful god.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

What upsets me is you never get any answers from Christians about all the horrible, evil things God does and ordered people to do. Mumbling about context from liberal Christians but not outright denial of God doing these awful things. Fundies cheering on the awful things is more honest.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Spot, I rarely discuss religion on forums or social media, because the conversations too often turn ugly (with both the religious folks and the atheists to blame). But I have to say this:

Many, if not most, of us who call ourselves Christians try to do the right and moral thing for the same basic reason that you do -- because we believe it is right and moral, not out of fear. And I find much of what the OP has said to be quite... disturbing.

Ziyal
M.Div.

So I just reread all of your comments, 5billion, and I need to revise my last sentence above.... I find all of what you have said here to be very disturbing.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It just seems so pointless, what 5billion is going on about. How does it help anyone be the light of the world?

Christian preachers are always warning against worldly distractions, don't focus on such things.. and yet so much of christian focus IS nothing but distractions. What happened gazillions of years ago with the supposedly first people, what's going to happen gazillions of years from now with the supposedly last people.. what about the people right in front of us today.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

^ It doesn't help anyone be the light of the world. Living and treating others as Jesus did does.

And, btw, Jesus didn't say a thing about homosexuality or a whole lot of other topics that certain Christians are kind of obsessed with. He did say a lot about feeding the hungry and loving our enemies.

 

[BillJ]

That sounds no more sane or rational than the rest of it. Like the plot of a bad scifi pulp from the 70's.

Sane or rational? Maybe not. But it sounds a whole lot more entertaining.

 

[Guy Gardener]

^ It doesn't help anyone be the light of the world. Living and treating others as Jesus did does.

And, btw, Jesus didn't say a thing about homosexuality or a whole lot of other topics that certain Christians are kind of obsessed with. He did say a lot about feeding the hungry and loving our enemies.

Paparazzi circa 31 ad: "Jesus, when you were God, a while back, you were destroying cities, 10s of thousands of sodomy enthusiasts at a stroke, in the mean time, in the interim, have you chilled the fuck out?"

Christ: "No comment."

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Oh yeah! I forgot that Jesus was God. I wonder how he reconciled all the good, kind, judge not things he said with what he did before he was born?

 

[Guy Gardener]

In the beginning there was nothing.

God both gave birth to himself and breast fed himself.

That's pretty fly for a white guy.

 

[Tosk]

And, btw, Jesus didn't say a thing about homosexuality or a whole lot of other topics that certain Christians are kind of obsessed with. He did say a lot about feeding the hungry and loving our enemies.

And he had a pretty specific opinion in rich people too, which I notice "they" mostly try to ignore.

 

[Amaris]

And he had a pretty specific opinion in rich people too, which I notice "they" mostly try to ignore.

Indeed. The prosperity gospel is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. It is incredible how far people will twist the Bible while also claiming to preserve its very fundamentals.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

In physics, energy cannot be created or destroyed, so something has to happen to the "spark" that makes us who we are. Personally I like the idea of reincarnation, as it sounds very Trill-like

 

[Guy Gardener]

Physics persists only by gods whimsy.