Challenge for all atheists
- Thread starter 5billionof5billion
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Amaris
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My faith module overloaded.I guess God forgot to install my Faith module.
(Faith module pictured here)
As Scotty would say, are you daft? Marrying between relatives in the early biblical days was okay. Able was not a sister. He was a brother. The only reason it's not marrying close relatives isn't legal anymore is because of two many genetic impurities or whatever the word is that results in unhealthy offspring. They didn't have anyone else to have a relationship with at first, so they had to marry someone.
God bless, Jason Irelan
The problem is, that you need at least 40 genetically diverse samples to create a gene pool capable of long term propagation using Human DNA.
5 would implode within a few generations with severe genetic dysfunction, nevermind the 100 billion humans there have been in the last 150,000 years.
5 would implode within a few generations with severe genetic dysfunction, nevermind the 100 billion humans there have been in the last 150,000 years.
Science is for heathens!
For the record, while marriage between related people is not commonly legal, incest itself is not illegal in most countries. Germany is one of the few countries where incest is still illegal, France on the other hand threw that law out back in 19th century.
Should incest be legal or not? Feels like the far more interesting matter. I for one don't think it should be illegal in itself. As long as it happens between consenting adults, who am I to judge. Any other reason for illegalizing incest either does not hold up scrutiny or is covered by other laws.
So, who's with me with officially derailing the discussion?
I have been a faithful Christian and have been flushed down the toilet too many times. 
I am beginning to think there is nothing great/good out there. 
I am beginning to think there is nothing great/good out there. 
5 Billion, I don't mean any personal attack here, you know I've attempted to help you on other matters elsewhere. However I'm wondering if you understand that the true issue with incest has nothing to do with religion per se, but the simple fact that said genetic issues and "unhealthy offspring" are not new phenomena?
They have always occured and even the most basic understanding of genetics demonstrates that a scenario with two people being the source of the entire human race is simply a medical impossibility. This isn't because I heard from someone once or my cousin's uncles minister told me, but is simply a logical extension of EXTREMELY well researched biology.
In other words no matter what you, I, your minister, his daughter or anyone else believes, if Adam and Eve had literally existed as per Genesis there simply could be no human race now. It isn't up for debate.
I realise I'm not going to convince you to change your beliefs here but you need to realise that others do believe differently and manage to be decent, honest, moral people. All without the need of some threat of consequences if they "sin" - but simply because they have a desire to do good. They do not deserve the level of atack they are getting.
Arguably neither do you, but you are expecting a large group of star trek fans, people who almost by definition will opt for reason over faith every time to accept some pretty terribly thought out and presented arguments and threats.
I'm not knocking your religion per se (although having had a fundamentalist upbringing myself I realise that you are taught to see the world in black and white with anyone who disagrees with you as the enemy).
I am merely pointing out just how offensive it is to tell people that they should kill themselves to find out the truth and use constant threats about horrific consequences to coerce (not convince) people that they should subscribe to your belief out of fear. Christianity purpotes to be a religion which teaches us to love our neighbour and that simply isn't compatible with the bullying, intimidation and fearmongering which your approach relies on.
The people you are talking to aren't an enemy, they are simply people who have a different set of beliefs. For many, one of those beliefs is the power of logic and absolutely terrible arguments based on "I know someone who...or I heard a growl from a girl at a camp" simply aren't going to wash.
Believe it or not, that really is ok and I have little fear that either you or I will find ourselves in a lake of fire which (feel free to check) is never even mentioned in the bible.
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Amaris
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That, I believe, was one of the first seeds of doubt I ever had regarding the accuracy of the Bible. When I wondered where Cain's wife came from, and no one had an answer based in anything other than supposition, I started to look for myself, and there was nothing at all. Then I started wondering if maybe the Bible was a story of God's relationship to what would become the nation of Israel. Of course, that raised the question of why God would shrug off all of the other people in the world (since he apparently created the entire world).Seems like God didn't think that one all the way through then.
Once I began studying the concept of tribal gods, that opened up an entirely new aspect of it for me. Tying in that new perspective with "thou shalt have no other gods before me," and holy shit, my little fundamentalist mind exploded.
There are great things out there. Whether they come in the form of a deity, or just another human being, shouldn't matter. *hugs*I have been a faithful Christian and have been flushed down the toilet too many times.
Well a church itself isn't made up, as in a church is an intentional community of people who socialize and care for and support each other. If you're going to have someone being the minister of such a community you would think you'd want them to have some training other than just sending away for a card on the internet. You need more training to be a scout leader than that.
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Amaris
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Fair point, but there are plenty of communities where the only thing necessary to start it all was someone willing to lead and coordinate. Many churches started exactly that way, at least in the U.S.
We're also experiencing a cultural shift. Knowledge that was once prized is now disregarded in favor of emotion. It's far better to have a "feeling" in your heart that leads you to believe that the world is all wrong and "we need to do something about it." That alone is often more than enough to gain influence.
In all honesty, I can buy a Theology degree. I can just straight up buy one, start my church, and not one soul would question it, because the mere facade alone would be enough as long as what I felt, what I said, appealed to the emotions of the group.
Just for the record, Evangelical Christianity is mainstream in the United States.
I have been a faithful Christian and have been flushed down the toilet too many times.
Yeah, I learnt that valuable life lesson when I was in my late teens as I explained yesterday.
Sure and of course people can do what they like. It's just when someone sets themselves up as a leader it would be nice if they had social work training, psychology training, the sort of people training that non-church groups require of leaders as well as having a period of time when you're apprenticed to an experienced person whose done all that for years. The idea that you can send away for a card on the internet as a teenager and say you are now a minister is.. well I don't even know how to address that. I can send away for a card or a magic ring to be a superhero and that doesn't make me a superhero.
Completely and utterly backwards, dangerous and most of all, silly.
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Amaris
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It does whenever your hero status is based solely on the perception of others. Who, in authority, is going to question you? God? He hasn't bothered to weigh in on anything so far, and we've seen some truly reprehensible and vile things come from people claiming to speak for him.
For example, look at Joel Osteen: He's a multimillionaire with a massive church, millions of followers, and his message is essentially "be positive, and God will bless you." What theology degree does he need for that?
Too many here simply don't care about that. They just want to hear that they are right in their beliefs and paradise awaits them.
i stand so corrected
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