The Daily Dalek

[PhaserLightShow]

From today on, I will put a daily post in this thread talking about interesting Doctor Who fact(s). Later editions will probably be longer. Post comments, but even more: enjoy!

"The Daily Dalek"
Issue 1
Did you know that the Cybermen (see: "The Tenth Planet") inspired the Borg from Star Trek (see: "The Best of Both Worlds")? Especially the concept of assimilation/upgrading. Just as the Borg inspired the Cybermen from "Nightmare in Silver" that can adapt to weapons. Both are cyborgs.

 

[The Wormhole]

While there are undeniable similarities between the Borg and the Cybermen, I don't think the Borg were inspired by the Cybermen. Indeed, neither Wikipedia nor Memory Alpha make any mention to such inspiration.

Besides, when the Borg were originally developed, it was as an insect race, but the budget made that impossible, so they became cyborgs instead. Also, Q Who makes no mention to assimilation, and indeed the concept of assimilating wasn't even thought up until TBOBW. So if anything the Borg became accidentally similar to the Cybermen.

 

[Christopher]

Besides, when the Borg were originally developed, it was as an insect race, but the budget made that impossible, so they became cyborgs instead. Also, Q Who makes no mention to assimilation, and indeed the concept of assimilating wasn't even thought up until TBOBW. So if anything the Borg became accidentally similar to the Cybermen.

Yes. They probably both draw on the earlier body of science fiction works based on fears of losing our humanity and individuality to machines, or just on that general idea in the zeitgeist. Heck, you can find precedent as far back as the Tin Woodsman in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, if not earlier. Kit Pedler was inspired to create the Cybermen because of his concerns about the burgeoning field of organ transplants and his rather alarmist concerns that it could erode away our humanity if taken too far, so clearly his fictional creation was influenced by issues that were in play in real society and fears floating around in the culture. It's not so surprising that such real-world issues could influence more than one fictional creator in similar ways.

Some people are so quick to assume that if two works resemble each other, one must be copying the other. But they forget that both works exist in a larger cultural context and draw on a common heritage. Most of the time, any such similarity will be the result of convergent evolution rather than deliberate imitation. Creators actually try very hard not to imitate each other, because you have to create something that stands out from the crowd if you want to sell your work. But different works accidentally resemble each other all the time, because everyone's drawing on the same pool of ideas and tropes and so some convergence is inevitable.

The point about accidental similarity also applies to the often-heard claim that Gary Seven in "Assigment: Earth" was influenced by Doctor Who. This is based on a failure to understand the timing. Not only would no one in America see Doctor Who until the '70s, but the original A:E premise was developed in November 1966, at a time when the Doctor was still a crochety old man wandering through Earth history and alien worlds with the company of a heroic man of action and a teenage girl. All the stuff that resembled Gary Seven -- the stuff about an alien agent using superscience to defend present-day Earth -- wasn't added to Doctor Who until later, mainly the Pertwee era. Gary's servo is often compared to the sonic screwdriver, and they were introduced onscreen just weeks apart, but not only was the servo established in the original pilot premise two years earlier, but the sonic screwdriver was originally nothing like the servo. It started out as literally just a screwdriver that didn't need to touch the screw. It wasn't until later that it began to accumulate other functions and thus resemble the servo more. So the similarities there are also accidental -- and probably the result of both shows trying to emulate the high-tech spy craze of the day.

 

[PhaserLightShow]

While there are undeniable similarities between the Borg and the Cybermen, I don't think the Borg were inspired by the Cybermen. Indeed, neither Wikipedia nor Memory Alpha make any mention to such inspiration.

Besides, when the Borg were originally developed, it was as an insect race, but the budget made that impossible, so they became cyborgs instead. Also, Q Who makes no mention to assimilation, and indeed the concept of assimilating wasn't even thought up until TBOBW. So if anything the Borg became accidentally similar to the Cybermen.

But the Aparoids (the cybernetic bug villains in the Nintendo GameCube game "Star Fox Assualt" released in 2005) were inspired by them.

TDD Part 2
April 12, 2016
The TARDIS interior set used by Patrick Troughton (the Second Doctor) in "The Two Doctors" was actually not his original set, but rather the one used by Peter Davison (as the Fifth Doctor).

 

[Lonemagpie]

The Borg are certainly influenced by the Cybermen, at least on a subconscious level, but were't originally planned to be like that. It got more so as time went on. Though there's also a good case that they're as similar to the Sontarans, at least originally, as Q Who depicts them as a clone race with cybernetic implants. But then again, the Jem'Hadar took over that crown... Everything old is new again...

 

[Christopher]

But the Aparoids (the cybernetic bug villains in the Nintendo GameCube game "Star Fox Assualt" released in 2005) were inspired by them.

Do you have an actual source for that, or are you just making another assumption?

TDD Part 2
April 12, 2016
The TARDIS interior set used by Patrick Troughton (the Second Doctor) was actually not his original set, but rather the one used by Peter Davison (as the Fifth Doctor).

This sentence is meaningless out of context. You forgot to specify that you're talking about the interior set used in the 1985 Sixth Doctor story "The Two Doctors," which brought back the Second Doctor and his companion Jamie 16 years after their tenure on the show ended.

The Borg are certainly influenced by the Cybermen, at least on a subconscious level, but were't originally planned to be like that. It got more so as time went on.

I don't know that I'd agree. Do we know for a fact that any of Star Trek's creators were all that familiar with Doctor Who? Unlike the 2005 revival, the original series was never as big in the US as it was in the UK. It was shown mainly on non-commercial public television stations (PBS) and didn't really get nationwide distribution until the mid-'80s. It was more of a cult phenomenon in the US, much less pervasive than something like Star Trek or Star Wars. That's why the '96 Paul McGann movie didn't get good enough ratings on FOX to go to series -- because US audiences, on the whole, didn't understand it and were confused by how heavily it relied on continuity from an unfamiliar franchise.

As I said, I think it's probably parallel evolution. Both ideas drew on pervasive fears in the zeitgeist -- the fear of losing our individuality to a conformist, tyrannical state and the fear of losing our humanity to automation. It's pretty natural to put those two fears together. How many times has the loss of individuality and freedom been metaphorically described as being reduced to a cog in a machine? It's a fear that goes back to the first assembly lines, if not to the dawn of the Industrial Revolution. Long before the Borg, you can see traces of it in Star Trek's "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" and "I, Mudd," which both portray societies of androids (the latter of which is clearly a hive mind) intending to "save" us by enslaving or replacing us and imposing a dehumanizing machine order.

Plus production realities were probably a factor in the convergent evolution of the ideas as well. If you want to portray a robotic threat, it's more practical to put an actor in a robot suit than to build some kind of animatronic puppet, say. Doctor Who often hid human operators inside larger vehicle-type robot bodies -- Daleks, Mechonoids, War Machines -- but there were practical advantages to using more humanoid robotic foes. And as we've heard, the Borg were made mechanical humanoid hybrids because it was more affordable than making them insectoid. And since the Cybermen and Borg were both independently established as humanoids transformed into semi-robotic forms, the idea of them assimilating and converting people was a natural outgrowth of that, drawing on the same infection fears that produced the mythology of vampires and werewolves and Romero zombies. After all, Locutus aside, assimilation didn't start to be portrayed as a routine Borg tactic until First Contact, and that movie essentially retconned the Borg into zombies. That's the real source of the assimilation idea -- zombie movies, not Cybermen.

Though there's also a good case that they're as similar to the Sontarans, at least originally, as Q Who depicts them as a clone race with cybernetic implants. But then again, the Jem'Hadar took over that crown... Everything old is new again...

Just another iteration of the same fear of losing individuality. If you think about it, the Daleks and Cybermen are very similar to each other -- they're both formerly humanoid races that dehumanized themselves by eroding away their physical forms, encasing their brains inside deadly mechanical containers, and altering their neuropsychology to eradicate kindness, mercy, decency, etc. The main difference is that Daleks seek to destroy other life while Cybermen seek to convert it into themselves, but there have been times when the Daleks have sought to assimilate humans as well. (And the idea that Moffat introduced in "Asylum of the Daleks," that Dalek nanotech could infect humans and convert them into Dalekized slaves... now, that probably is influenced by the Borg, consciously or not.)

 

[PhaserLightShow]

Do you have an actual source for that, or are you just making another assumption?




This sentence is meaningless out of context. You forgot to specify that you're talking about the interior set used in the 1985 Sixth Doctor story "The Two Doctors," which brought back the Second Doctor and his companion Jamie 16 years after their tenure on the show ended.
)

The source for what I said about the Aparoids was stated at the bottom of the Wikipedia page on the Borg.
And I have added "The Two Doctors". I am sorry. Thank you for recognizing. You really know your stuff!

@PhaserLightShow

 

[Christopher]

The source for what I said about the Aparoids was stated at the bottom of the Wikipedia page on the Borg.

And it does not say that the Borg inspired the Aparoids. Whoever wrote that entry just claims that they're "much like the Borg," which doesn't prove intentional derivation. It sounds like some amateur Wiki editor confused belief for fact. Wikipedia is an imperfect reference, and should not be relied on as an exclusive source.

 

[PhaserLightShow]

Do you have an actual source for that, or are you just making another assumption?




This sentence is meaningless out of context. You forgot to specify that you're talking about the interior set used in the 1985 Sixth Doctor story "The Two Doctors," which brought back the Second Doctor and his companion Jamie 16 years after their tenure on the show ended.




I don't know that I'd agree. Do we know for a fact that any of Star Trek's creators were all that familiar with Doctor Who? Unlike the 2005 revival, the original series was never as big in the US as it was in the UK. It was shown mainly on non-commercial public television stations (PBS) and didn't really get nationwide distribution until the mid-'80s. It was more of a cult phenomenon in the US, much less pervasive than something like Star Trek or Star Wars. That's why the '96 Paul McGann movie didn't get good enough ratings on FOX to go to series -- because US audiences, on the whole, didn't understand it and were confused by how heavily it relied on continuity from an unfamiliar franchise.

As I said, I think it's probably parallel evolution. Both ideas drew on pervasive fears in the zeitgeist -- the fear of losing our individuality to a conformist, tyrannical state and the fear of losing our humanity to automation. It's pretty natural to put those two fears together. How many times has the loss of individuality and freedom been metaphorically described as being reduced to a cog in a machine? It's a fear that goes back to the first assembly lines, if not to the dawn of the Industrial Revolution. Long before the Borg, you can see traces of it in Star Trek's "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" and "I, Mudd," which both portray societies of androids (the latter of which is clearly a hive mind) intending to "save" us by enslaving or replacing us and imposing a dehumanizing machine order.

Plus production realities were probably a factor in the convergent evolution of the ideas as well. If you want to portray a robotic threat, it's more practical to put an actor in a robot suit than to build some kind of animatronic puppet, say. Doctor Who often hid human operators inside larger vehicle-type robot bodies -- Daleks, Mechonoids, War Machines -- but there were practical advantages to using more humanoid robotic foes. And as we've heard, the Borg were made mechanical humanoid hybrids because it was more affordable than making them insectoid. And since the Cybermen and Borg were both independently established as humanoids transformed into semi-robotic forms, the idea of them assimilating and converting people was a natural outgrowth of that, drawing on the same infection fears that produced the mythology of vampires and werewolves and Romero zombies. After all, Locutus aside, assimilation didn't start to be portrayed as a routine Borg tactic until First Contact, and that movie essentially retconned the Borg into zombies. That's the real source of the assimilation idea -- zombie movies, not Cybermen.




Just another iteration of the same fear of losing individuality. If you think about it, the Daleks and Cybermen are very similar to each other -- they're both formerly humanoid races that dehumanized themselves by eroding away their physical forms, encasing their brains inside deadly mechanical containers, and altering their neuropsychology to eradicate kindness, mercy, decency, etc. The main difference is that Daleks seek to destroy other life while Cybermen seek to convert it into themselves, but there have been times when the Daleks have sought to assimilate humans as well. (And the idea that Moffat introduced in "Asylum of the Daleks," that Dalek nanotech could infect humans and convert them into Dalekized slaves... now, that probably is influenced by the Borg, consciously or not.)

Actually, the Cybermen are still humanoid. But how could they be human? The original Cybermen were never human to begin with (they are Mondasians which are very similar to humans).

@PhaserLightShow

 

[Lonemagpie]

Do we know for a fact that any of Star Trek's creators were all that familiar with Doctor Who? Unlike the 2005 revival, the original series was never as big in the US as it was in the UK.

Yes we do, as there were direct references dating back to the 1st season TNG episode The Neutral Zone (which lists Hartnell thru Colin Baker as descentandts of one of the frozen characters). And as late as 2003 - two years before Nu Who, the Enterprise writers admitted wanting the time ship in Future Tense to brieflyappear as a Police Box. So, for the whole run of modern Trek there's a range in which at least some of the creators were definitely aware of the British series.

 

[Redfern]

Whether the Borg were deliberately influenced by the Cybermen or not, some of the dialog given to both Q and Quinen in "Q Who" does sound like stuff the Doctor would say when he habitually materializes upon a ship and tries to warn the crew.

Say, Christopher. Can you tell us why the writers opted to title that episode "Q Who"?

Sincerely,

Bill