Did Janeway Kill Tuvix?

[Chief Medical Officer]

Since Tuvix was the combination between Tuvok and Neelix, did she really kill another creature? Or merely restore what should have been there in the first place?

The episode certainly poses a lot of ethical questions, but it's not clear if what Janeway was doing was killing one life form or restoring 2 others.

Thoughts?

 

[PhaserLightShow]

Since Tuvix was the combination between Tuvok and Neelix, did she really kill another creature? Or merely restore what should have been there in the first place?

The episode certainly poses a lot of ethical questions, but it's not clear if what Janeway was doing was killing one life form or restoring 2 others.

Thoughts?

She was doing both. While Tuvix existed, Tuvok and Neelix were dead, but they were brought back to life. The same could go for Tuvix, when Tuvok and Neelix are and were alive.

@PhaserLightShow

 

[hux]

This again. I made my position clear in the last Tuvix thread so will refer to it here if the thread takes off. Meanwhile, no Janeway did not kill anyone. Tuvix was two conscious minds (Tuvok and Neelix) battling to make sense of the world. If not, then you need to explain where this so-called third consciousness came from followed by a discussion about the soul (sounds like fun to me) and Descartes.

She was doing both. While Tuvix existed, Tuvok and Neelix were dead, but they were brought back to life. The same could go for Tuvix, when Tuvok and Neelix are and were alive

Dead is the wrong word. Firstly, dead people don't get brought back to life. Secondly, where was Tuvix before the accident? If Tuvix truly was a unique consciousness (and he wasn't) then Janeway's decision simply sent him back to wherever that was.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Yes, Janeway ultimately decided to proceed with the separation and performed the procedure herself (succeeding in restoring both Tuvok and Neelix), after the Doctor refuses to take Tuvix's life in compliance with the medical precept of doing no harm* BUT, I remember 2 things too.

1) Kes reaction: she reacted poorly to Tuvix as his existence deprives her of both Tuvok and Neelix and though her displeasure lessens over the course of the episode, she never completely goes away. She will end to ask Janeway to do her utmost so that "her" Neelix (and Tuvok) returns to her -> how couldn't she not know that for restoring of lost Neelix and Tuvok, would require Tuvix's execution?!

2) while Tuvix made a final emotive plea for support from the crew on the bridge, NO ONE supported him. Whether it's Chakotay, Tom, Harry or B'Elena, again, NO ONE even tried to intervene with Janeway (they kept silent and lowered the head), not even when she asked to the security officers to escort Tuvix to Sickbay, even though he just recognized that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few" and consented to his fate -> He wouldn't have tried to escape or tried to take Janeway in hostage during the transfer. Come on, can you imagine Tuvok or Neelix doing harm to their beloved Capitain or not obeying to one of her orders?!

For me, they ALL share the responsibility here, not only Janeway (besides, at the very end, we see a troubled Janeway after performing the procedure and how she is going to have to live with her choice). I am almost sure that for the others, it was just an accident, nothing more.

I like this episode for Mulgrew's (she really brought that look and emotion to work with her) and Tom Wright (Tuvix)'s great performances. He marveled at his ability to bring credibility to the prospect of two characters, Neelix and Tuvok in one.

 

[Longinus]

Since Tuvix was the combination between Tuvok and Neelix, did she really kill another creature? Or merely restore what should have been there in the first place?

The episode certainly poses a lot of ethical questions, but it's not clear if what Janeway was doing was killing one life form or restoring 2 others.

She was doing both. It was still a murder.

Anyway, this topic was extensively discussed in a recent and still active 'Worst command decisions' thread. The topic is mentioned already on the first page and then goes on for several more. I recommend you check the views expressed there first.

 

[stardream]

I killed Tuvix. I am Spartacus...er...Janeway.

 

[Heghta]

I think she had to do it. She had to restore things to the way they were. There is not much else really to say about that.

 

[Tosk]

Firstly, dead people don't get brought back to life.

It happens a lot. Sometimes after only being dead for a short time, sometimes as long as three days.

Secondly, where was Tuvix before the accident? If Tuvix truly was a unique consciousness (and he wasn't) then Janeway's decision simply sent him back to wherever that was.

Where does the consciousness of a baby come from?

 

[hux]

It happens a lot. Sometimes after only being dead for a short time, sometimes as long as three days.

Not from my definition of dead. If you can come back from it, you weren't dead.

Where does the consciousness of a baby come from?

Baby doesn't have a consciousness. It develops one through experience and contact with the world. E.g, they don't arrive with a formed personality.

 

[Tosk]

Baby doesn't have a consciousness.

So it would be okay to end the life of one?

 

[hux]

So it would be okay to end the life of one?

Nope.

A baby's consciousness will develop naturally and slowly over time and thus will not require the sacrifice of any other life form. That its consciousness develops like this demonstrates that it is not utilising the consciousness of others as a crutch on which to claim individuality. It is a unique and natural life-form endowed with the rights afforded to such life.

Tuvix's consciousness was immediate and entirely dependent upon two other conscious minds. If this is not true... then where did his consciousness come from in nature? How did it develop?

 

[Guy Gardener]

I guess you've never had your breasts ruined by an over suckling baby?

I think she had to do it. She had to restore things to the way they were. There is not much else really to say about that.

No matter the flowery justification, for the crime of murdering Tuvix, Janeway should have been legally executed or sentenced to life imprisonment.

Fortunately as the supreme legal authority on Voyager, Kathy tried, judged, sentenced herself, and then commuted her sentence under her breath during the instant she pressed the contact on that hypo-spray which cleaved Tuvix into two pieces.

 

[DonIago]

I still think it would have been poetic justice if the procedure had failed.

I also still think those who claim Tuvix didn't have the right to live are obligated to answer the question of how long his existence would have to persist for before he gained that right. Can Starfleet come to him 50 years later and perform the procedure?

I applaud The Doctor's refusal to perform the procedure. Whether or not it was "right" to (attempt to) restore Neelix and Tuvok, I can't condone doing so at the very real cost of an extant and unique lifeform.

 

[Vandervecken]

I still think it would have been poetic justice if the procedure had failed.

I also still think those who claim Tuvix didn't have the right to live are obligated to answer the question of how long his existence would have to persist for before he gained that right. Can Starfleet come to him 50 years later and perform the procedure?

I applaud The Doctor's refusal to perform the procedure. Whether or not it was "right" to (attempt to) restore Neelix and Tuvok, I can't condone doing so at the very real cost of an extant and unique lifeform.

Bur Tuvix wasn't a life form. This was a side effect. How long does a person have to remain in a coma for the coma to be considered a person? Tuvok and Neelix were in a fancy sort of coma. The "flowery justifications" are on the part of naming Tuvix an independent being. "Tuvix" was the coma state for Tuvok and Neelix produced by the transporter. That that coma state included babbling and non-Tuvok/Neelix interacting doesn't stop it from being a COMA. Just makes it more sentimentally endearing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

3000 year old sentient syphilis minding it's own gawd damned business.

Murdered to save Tuvok and Janeway!

 

[HIjol]

I was under the impression that Tuvix was, in fact, a life form. Accidental and incidental and trans(porter)-scendental, yes, but a life form, nonetheless.

Yes???

 

[Guy Gardener]

Doesn't matter.

Janeway was "probably" going to let Tuvix live.

Then Kes shows up to badger and lobby Kathryn, saying that she can't live without Neelix, and that her boyfriend must be returned to her or she'll be really, really sob, sob, sad.

Did Kes mention that Tuvix made a rapey pass at her?

No?

But really the Ocampan should used the evidence of lecherousness if her intention was to kill Tuvix as quickly as possible.

"Sigh"

12 episodes later, Kes, the reason Tuvix was executed, dumps Neelix because she's bored of snuggling up to a fat 50 year old man, and she can sob, sob, live without him.

 

[hux]

The ideal scenario as far as judging whether he was a unique mind or just two minds making sense of the world through one voice, would have been to let him live... for a bit longer. If Tuvix is just Tuvok and Neelix (and he was) not properly communicating themselves adequately due to the confusion of two minds in one body, then perhaps more time would have alleviated this and their minds (which were the only minds present) would have learnt to better express themselves. Consequently, Tuvok and neelix (through the voice of Tuvix) would have inevitably asked to be separated.

Of course, I totally understand why Janeway simply couldn't do this (and agree with it). Would have been interesting to have Tuvix as a character for half a season or something though. Get the audience to really like him and THEN separate him.

 

[Vandervecken]

Doesn't matter.

Janeway was "probably" going to let Tuvix live.

Then Kes shows up to badger and lobby Kathryn, saying that she can't live without Neelix, and that her boyfriend must be returned to her or she'll be really, really sob, sob, sad.

Did Kes mention that Tuvix made a rapey pass at her?

No?

But really the Ocampan should used the evidence of lecherousness if her intention was to kill Tuvix as quickly as possible.

"Sigh"

12 episodes later, Kes, the reason Tuvix was executed, dumps Neelix because she's bored of snuggling up to a fat 50 year old man, and she can sob, sob, live without him.

If that's what it took for Janeway to stop imputing personhood to a coma state, then good.

 

[Catarina]

If Tuvix was nothing, then why was he so afraid of his demise? Why did observe and adapt to use his gifts in unique ways? I don't think he was Tuvok and Neelix in a static noise, he became something else. And how readily they were to rip him apart to get their friends back, to me shows they can't cope with death or accidents what so ever. Some star fleet training.

Personally, I was bummed to see Russ and Phillips back at their stations. Tuvix was grating at times, but at that point in the series but I found Russ boring and under utilized and well, we all know how we felt about raging Paris hating Neelix of the time. Thankfully, time paid off and I have come to value them both.