The Worst Decision by a Starfleet Cpt/Cdr.

[Longinus]

Which they didn't, The Baku then became selfish assholes.

They were selfish assholes as they didn't want their planet to be destroyed and stop being immortal. Really?

And what if they were selfish assholes? (They would be if they wouldn't let others use the uninhabited parts of the planet, not for refusing to leave.)

Look, I think Donald Trump is a selfish asshole, a prime example of one, in fact. I still think it would be wrong to steal his money and give it to the poor. And before you say, it was about lives not money, think how many starving children could be saved with his four billion dollars (or whatever he is supposed to be worth at the moment.)

In fact, I'm sure quite a many starving children could be saved by taking whatever property you may have.

Nothing says that after relocation the Baku wouldn't have enjoyed the same access to the particles as billions of other, they simply wouldn't of had exclusive use.

Which unlikely would have granted them immortality.

 

[BillJ]

In fact, I'm sure quite a many starving children could be saved by taking whatever property you may have.

If I thought that I could save children by giving up the few trinkets I have, I'd do it in a heartbeat. If I thought I could save people from cancer, I'd do the same. But this litmus test you keep tossing out is silly.

If immortality was important to the Ba'ku, they should have been prepared to defend it.

 

[Longinus]

If I thought that I could save children by giving up the few trinkets I have, I'd do it in a heartbeat. If I thought I could save people from cancer, I'd do the same. But this litmus test you keep tossing out is silly.

And good for you! But it still would be wrong to take those things from you by force.

If immortality was important to the Ba'ku, they should have been prepared to defend it.

This is shit morals. Might does not make right.This is like saying that it is okay for Germany to conquer Liechtenstein* because Liechtensteinians obviously don't care enough as they have no army. And of course there's no fucking way Ba'ku could have defended their planet against the Federation anyway, even if they had used their scientific know-how to build ships and what not. How are you prepared to defend your possessions?

(* Yes, I know they don't actually have common border.)

 

[BillJ]

This is shit morals.

Life sucks and is seldom fair.

And of course there's no fucking way Ba'ku could have defended their planet against the Federation anyway

They have to have more up their collective sleeve than they let on, or else they would've never been able to force the S'ona off of the planet to begin with. They simply suckered Picard into doing their bidding.

How are you prepared to defend your possessions?

I'm not. But I realize the dangers that are involved with that kind of stance.

 

[Longinus]

Life sucks and is seldom fair.

So let's just abandon all morals then! Great logic!

 

[BillJ]

So let's just abandon all morals then! Great logic!

I believe it is more moral to move the Ba'ku than to allow them to eventually be slaughtered by some other species that want the meta-phasic radiation.

 

[Longinus]

I believe it is more moral to move the Ba'ku than to allow them to eventually be slaughtered by some other species that want the meta-phasic radiation.

A sensible course of action would have been for the Federation to negotiate some sort of a defence pact with the Ba'ku in exchange of sharing the planet's resources.

 

[BillJ]

A sensible course of action would have been for the Federation to negotiate some sort of a defence pact with the Ba'ku in exchange of sharing the planet's resources.

Why would the Ba'ku do that when they have yokels like Picard who will come swinging in to save the day with no cost to them? Though I doubt they would agree to share the planet, they exiled their own children to die.

 

[BillJ]

The whole expelling the children and sentencing them to die because they disagree with the ways of the parent, is old school, Biblical hater shit. Why would the Federation want to be in a relationship with people like that?

 

[Longinus]

Why would the Ba'ku do that when they have yokels like Picard who will come swinging in to save the day with no cost to them?

I doubt they could trust one Picard to come to save them every time. I think they probably trusted the Federation not to attack them, as they have a reputation as non-interfering peacemakers (a reputation Dougherty was willing to trash.)

Though I doubt they would agree to share the planet, they exiled their own children to die.

I already said many times what I thought about that.

The whole expelling the children and sentencing them to die because they disagree with the ways of the parent, is old school, Biblical hater shit. Why would the Federation want to be in a relationship with people like that?

You mean like the Vulcans expelled the Romulans?

 

[BillJ]

You mean like the Vulcans expelled the Romulans?

We don't know exactly what happened with the Romulans and Vulcans. The Romulans could've left of their own accord.

But that is an entirely different situation and I tend to think that you know that.

 

[Longinus]

Look, I don't need to think that Ba'ku are saints in order to think it is wrong to destroy their planet. It is not much of a moral system if it applies only to nice people. See my earlier comment about Trump.

Besides, the Federation has an alliance with the Klingons, who are conquering imperialists with an undemocratic form of government. I think working with the Ba'ku is fine.

 

[Vandervecken]

Well, I agree. The planet belonged to Ba'ku and the Federation had no right to claim it. There could have been only one Ba'ku there and it still would have been wrong to take the planet. Are people really saying that the Federation should go around conquering planets for natural resources?

Only in extremis. I'd say there would be one justification for any amount of thievery--species survival. It's why I can't find it in my heart to condemn the Vidians, ghoulish as they are sometimes (that the first victim of theirs we ever see is Neelix does, I admit, also land me bang on their side at first--I saw s01e04 of Voy after I'd seen most of the series, so had plenty of time to become comfortable with the idea of Neelix being chop shopped). Survival trumps anything else--no "principle," which is, after all, just an arbitrary social code, should take a front seat to survival of a species. If you stop existing as a species, the rest means nothing.

But none of that is at stake here, so I completely agree with you: ownership trumps any perceived "need" that is not species survival. There is only one justification for the kind of banditry being discussed here. If we have to sink to that level, there needs to be the very best of reasons, because however arbitrary the decision not to simply take resources from others is, The Federation would know what they had collectively done--eventually the truth would get out, it's too big to keep a secret--and they would know that they are debased because of it and so would BE debased. In nearly the worst possible way, by current Federation standards, and, let's face it, human standards. Hello Terran Empire.

But we're not talking about resources that a readily available all over the galaxy, like dilithium. We're talking about something that can help the health of billions and is located in one area. Which is just in an entirely different ballpark.

We have six hundred people who are usurping the resources of an entire planet for themselves. That, to me, is simply wrong. I don't really care if they stumbled upon. It is also obvious that they aren't interested in sharing the planet with those with differing opinions on how life should be lived or else they wouldn't have kicked the S'ona off the planet to begin with. And it really is a numbers game. With a planet with hundreds of thousands or even millions, the logistics simply don't work out to move them.

Sucks to be them.

Once you do this, you really are no better than the Klingon Empire or Romulans or Cardassians. Or, as mentioned above, Terran Empire. Halkans, Bak'u--all the same. Their stuff, us taking it--or not.

Wouldn't matter if ONE person held this resource. It is theirs. Their property. Period. Only survival as a species would justify taking it by force.

Also: who makes this decision? It's pretty momentous. The Federation would be setting itself on the path of every other militaristic, might-makes-right empire, instead of continuing as one of the truly most enlightened political units portrayed in Trek, warts and all; might not the Federation Council, at least, reasonably need to be consulted? So that the trillions of Federation citizens have some voice in such a significant sea change of policy?

 

[BillJ]

Wouldn't matter if ONE person held this resource. It is theirs. Their property. Period.

I think this is a pretty sick way to look at things and it is what has lead to the wealth gap in the US and around the world.

 

[Vandervecken]

I think this is a pretty sick way to look at things and it is what has lead to the wealth gap in the US and around the world.

It's the way of looking at things that makes one not a thug and bandit and common thief. Kang's wife Mara used that as a justification for the Klingon Empire's conquering ways. For that matter, plenty of real-world dictators have used that excuse--they have stuff and we don't--to justify their brutal WARS that kill many, many innocent people.

Outright thievery by a society can't help but debase it, no matter what the justification, outside of survival of a species.

I do know that certain political persuasions perceive personal property as some sort of evil. Of course, in the real-world, any rights without property are meaningless. It is part of why we exist.

What is mine is mine, and just because you want it, whatever your reasons, is no excuse for you to take it. You endorse pure warlord thuggery. Sick? The Terran Empire is sick, and that's your ideal state. That is the kind of debased society that you inevitably will have without any regard for private property--a twisted, brutal, totalitarian regime that MUST engage in endless and increasingly violent expansionism to support a ruined internal economy. That way lies further debasement and eventual collapse, because pure probability tells us that some day, in some way, you'll bite off more than you can chew.

You can fantasize about living in the Terran Empire if you want to, me, I'll take the Federation.

 

[BillJ]

Terran Empire...

I'd say the US is far closer to the Terran Empire than the Federation, and our views of property ownership are a huge part of why. Our entire nation owes its existence to "taking things from others".

It isn't even like the Ba'ku created the meta-phasic radiation, they stumbled upon it and, for me, that is a rather weak claim to ownership. If they "stumbled upon it", then eventually others will stumble upon it.

 

[Kor]

As for the idea of letting the Bak'u keep living on the planet with some agreement to share the resources and defend them... the Son'a and Starfleet intended to collect the magical radiation in one big operation in a way that would make the planet uninhabitable for generations. They wanted it all at once so the whole Federation could benefit. There was no talk of harvesting it in a sustainable way that would allow the Bak'u to keep living there and wouldn't destroy the environment. Maybe if it wasn't for the Son'a's influence, they would have leaned toward something more mutually beneficial.

Or maybe that was the only possible way to harvest the radation. I'm feeling more like I have to go watch this moronic movie again to find out.

Kor

 

[Vandervecken]

Terran Empire...

I'd say the US is far closer to the Terran Empire than the Federation, and our views of property ownership are a huge part of why. Our entire nation owes its existence to "taking things from others".

It isn't even like the Ba'ku created the meta-phasic radiation, they stumbled upon it and, for me, that is a rather weak claim to ownership. If they "stumbled upon it", then eventually others will stumble upon it.

The laughter emoticon is sorely overused, mainly by people who want to look clever but aren't; who want to look above the fray but are really just out of ideas; who have no real answers.

I'm not going to get into a US vs everyone else debate with you, except to ask you one question: what is your standard? What other country on earth that has been a great actor in history is better.

Yes, Terran Empire. You don't seem to be aware of it, but that's what you are saying the Federation should become. A taker. A conqueror. You are saying that just because the Federation wants something, they should take it. That is ALL your argument boils down to.

I also notice you don't seem to give any thought at all to who makes the decision to take. I trust the citizenry of a great, enlightened state to make such a decision. Do you? Or do you automatically give that decision to a powerful, disconnected, unaccountable few, an appointed "intelligentsia" of bloodless technocrats? Would you at least lay the decision before the Federation Council, or do you fear they'd reject becoming an expansionist empire of takers and conquerors?

 

[BillJ]

Would you at least lay the decision before the Federation Council...

PICARD: I won't let you move them, Admiral. I will take this to the Federation Council.
DOUGHERTY: I'm acting on orders from the Federation Council.
PICARD: How can there be an order to abandon the Prime Directive?
DOUGHERTY: The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this planet. They were never meant to be immortal. We'll simply be restoring them to their natural evolution.

So... yes. I would involve the Federation council.

 

[Triskelion]

Two points:

1. Part of why this issue is problematic is because the Ba'ku are a group of 600 that is supposed to have apported full planetary alien civilization status, on par with any world populated for millions of years by trillions of people.

The Ba'Ku's meager population of 600 is (a) more akin to a colony, whose claims probably can only extend to what they are physically able to shoo others away from; and (b) evidence that something is wrong with their history, unless we are to believe they evolved this way.

- Probably a safer bet that a great many of them were lost - to what? Since they're not talking about it, my first guess would be - themselves. (They'd have to be galactic assholes not to mention "Oh by the way, there's a big space slug out there slurping people up").

Regardless - this spurious "civilization" had better hope a single Klingon Bird of Prey doesn't wipe them from evolutionary history with a single torpedo. Let alone ice ages and wildlife migrations.


2. The Ba'ku, having the myopia of any one horse town, should have greeted the Federation with cries of "Please help us avoid Death by Inbreeding"! And recognize that a trade deal with the galaxy's biggest nice guys, who also liked beige and macramé, was clearly in their own best interest.

Their shortsighted vanity made the Ba'ku a self-correcting problem. Even the most idealistic Federation watchdogs had only to watch the Ba'ku extinguish themselves with a negative birth rate - if not Son'a-style splintering. Et voila, a planet ready for full, moral colonization by a proper civilization with proper defense forces and society-builders.

(And good riddance, superfluous apostrophe-using navel-gazers).

That a colony expects the weight and respect of a civilization is a writing problem with this movie. That they could even arrive this way or continue this way is implausible, as well. Even taken at face value (why should we), their claim to planetary resources is utterly irrelevant - it is their ability to ward off encroaching squatters, prospectors and developers that matters. BTW, also worth a trade deal with the Federation.

They can claim to be Rulers of the Universe for all the good it would do against alien miners, medical concerns, refugees, and thugs. Never mind the Ferengi!

And if you really wanted to test their claim, just inform them that their secret is out on subspace wideband. See how cocky they are about the strength of their claim with a fleet of Klingon Birds-of-Prey in orbit. BTW, also worth a trade deal with the Federation.

Might doesn't make right; it makes people dead.