Was Kes a Good Character?
- Thread starter hux
- Start date
Tbh overall I just think the ending was a rushed mess to a show I absolutely adored. The final plot had so much potential to it and I really really liked the premise of it. But it was spoiled by Chakotay seven for me and the fact that they didn't even get back to Earth!! I would have loved to see just one episode with them back
I won't go any further in propounding differing arguments to the points you and others are making as I've already pretty much stated my thoughts on the matter. One thing that I will offer, is that this palaver, and yes I do choose to use that word, regarding Janeway and Chakotay is pure fantasy wish fulfillment for those that advocate it. That element of their relationship was long, long gone by the time of the finale and it definitely wasn't coming back. Aside from her beliefs about not seriously consorting with a member of the crew, Chakotay had shown time and time again that he was not worth the respect that Janeway likely needed to perceive was present in a potential match. Oh, he might voice dissenting opinions on occasion, even go to the extent on rare instances of disobeying orders, or interjecting himself in what she was so intent on doing (Lessing). But inevitably he put the lie to his supposed scruples by cowering back, refuting what he had vociferously maintained earlier, and basically ending up by snivellingly kissing her ass. Those dinners? Hmm, wasn't the food frequently ruined? Janeway might portray the culinary disaster as an indication of her lack of skills in that domain, But maybe it was purposeful as a not so obscure sign of contempt? I don't know, just a thought. I'll say this for all of you hoping against hope that such a resurrection of intent would magically reappear at the end. Forget about Janeway, but did Chakotay really ever show any ardor to pursue that kind of relationship again to any real extent in the last three or four years of the series? Oh I'm sure people can cite a comment here or a look there, but was there any real indication of anything like the tenor that was seen in the first three seasons? Shattered culd be mentioned, but Janeway didn't live through those 6+ years, she just got the Cliff Notes from Chakotay.
My real reason in responding here was to say that opposed to what you suggest about the development of Endgame in its totality, there was nothing rushed at all. Obviously, it was known at the beginning of the season, that it was to be the last and planning for the finale started then. Now whether anyone's perception is that the final result felt poorly thought out, with basically a combination of tropes used to drive the story, and that such conventional thinking made what was presented much less than it could have been, I just want to again emphasize that the sum of the resolution didn't owe to a rushed schedule for its execution.
Oh? I've watched about 4 of the panels I might have not seen it/forgotten it. I understand what she is saying but for me it would have been the final culmination of marquis and Voyager. It defenitly felt as if there was something between them that could've easily sparked? What do you guys think? (Sorry for topic change but it's very interesting to see what others think!)
On the topic of Kes however I must say from rewatching series 1 as I am now her role in the doctors development Is so instrumental he might never have even developed without her and that's definetly made me appreciate her more
A well written response ☺
1) You say there was no indication of a realtionship between janeway and chakotay. I agree with you I'm not sure the failed meals were a deep metaphor xD. However I would counter this with the realtionship betwern seven and chakotay was also spontaneous? There was very little indication they would get together, there personality's don't seem compatable as well as you say Janeway and chakotay. So in the actual situation is one much better than the other.
2) My thoughts were, if the writers had set up the relationship it could've happened. Out of the blue you're right is random Chakotay was not pursuing romance as most likely he was told not to. And the lines weren't in the script. But I think if Iinferences were made earlier in the seasons. It would have been possible
3) Janeway didnt perceive respect for Chakotay?? Your other points I agree with but I must disagree here. He was her first council and the person she trusted most on the ship except Tuvok who was her ultimate council and friend.
4) I think my choice of words was wrong. Not rushed but missing something? The whole point of the show was to yes explore discover have fun. But ultimately they want to get back to Earth. And we didn't even see earth ; ( I think maybe as you say it wouldn't have fit in scheduling. I never considered it like that. But Harry seeing his parents? Just something like that would've just made the show for me. Even if it was only 5 minutes on the end. That's why I'm so pleased the book series happened.
5) Isn't every discussion a Pavlaver? Reay it's fruitless we can't change the story. But because we are big Voyager fans we like to talk about what we think and what could of happened even if it's just imagination
Thanks! I'll have a watch
First of all, I have no wishes regarding Janeway and Chakotay. My advocacy to that point is that it would have made more sense than Chakotay and Seven being introduce in the last episode. I feel like the writers thought that since people liked Seven of Nine and they tolerated Chakotay that a relationship was an important next step. As I stated earlier, I simply didn't have the emotional investment in that relationship for it to matter one way or the other.
As for production rushes, that isn't my complaint. From a production standpoint, the final episode is put together very well. Stakes are set, different concepts are introduced, and the episode moves along. Standard fair for a Voyager episode.
What feels rushed is the Chakotay/Seven relationship and its impact upon the story. That Chakotay would be so devastated as to never recover from her loss.To me, that felt rushed as a plot point and one that is expecting a larger emotional impact than it ends up producing.
Agreed
Personally I feel Kes was a good character but and had good moments but I feel they could've done more with her and I don't think it was because she left either as I feel they had enough time during her time in the show to do it but yeah I feel they could've done a bit more with her character while she's there.
What I'm not sure but that's just how I feel.
What I'm not sure but that's just how I feel.
While the meals equalling contempt wasn't offered as a joke, thinking about it a bit more, I would agree that it isn't likely. She's just a crappy cook as she admitted herself.
I do sincerely wonder about the trust issue though. I don't wish to make sweeping generalizations as they won't really communicate anything, but I think it might be a legitimate question to ask if the reflexive response of Janeway to seek Chakotay's counsel about a command decision, didn't, in fact, decline in real terms, from Season 4 on. I'm not sure that I'm suggesting that on a quantitative basis, she sought or followed the opinion of Seven or Tuvok more frequently. I just have a sense that he wasn't as undeniably critical in that capacity, as had been the case for the first 3 seasons. It would take a rather thorough review to reach such a conclusion. Rather than rewatching those 4 seasons to do so though, it might be interesting to run through the dialogue presentations for those episodes and judge what one can glean.As for Seven/Chakotay, I can only say again that I think there was some precedence to it. I believe from the beginning there was a kind of fascination, or at least respect, that he found in the depth and clarity of her thinking on a number of things, both dealing with ship operations and philosophy or metaphysics. The explicit interest that Seven showed for him, I think could be seen at various times in reference to his ability to be less rigid or dogmatic in coming to conclusions, compared to Janeway. However, scant the actual close interaction, holo or virtual, was as depicted in final set of episodes, there was an unabiguous establishment of a closer understanding and regard they held for each other. Also, as I've emphasized, the show runners concept of how Seven's individuation was to be finally acknowledged, was through her acknowledgement of and longing for intimacy with another. If that was the premise, there really couldn't be anyone else that would provide that partner.
I wasn't a fan of the Kes character but I wasn't offended either. I just didn't find her character interesting. She was just another random alien who ended up eventually gaining superpowers...it was so deux ex machina.
7 of 9 was far more interesting. The first disconnected Borg drone reintegrated into human society. It was interesting to observe her journey. In that sense she kinda reminded me of Data a bit.
7 of 9 was far more interesting. The first disconnected Borg drone reintegrated into human society. It was interesting to observe her journey. In that sense she kinda reminded me of Data a bit.
While the meals equalling contempt wasn't offered as a joke, thinking about it a bit more, I would agree that it isn't likely. She's just a crappy cook as she admitted herself.
As for Seven/Chakotay, I can only say again that I think there was some precedence to it. I believe from the beginning there was a kind of fascination, or at least respect, that he found in the depth and clarity of her thinking on a number of things, both dealing with ship operations and philosophy or metaphysics. The explicit interest that Seven showed for him, I think could be seen at various times in reference to his ability to be less rigid or dogmatic in coming to conclusions, compared to Janeway. However, scant the actual close interaction, holo or virtual, was as depicted in final set of episodes, there was an unabiguous establishment of a closer understanding and regard they held for each other. Also, as I've emphasized, the show runners concept of how Seven's individuation was to be finally acknowledged, was through her acknowledgement of and longing for intimacy with another. If that was the premise, there really couldn't be anyone else that would provide that partner.
Absolutely yes it would be very interesting to review the scripts! ☺☺ it would defenitly be enjoyable to see about the respect in there relationship, it would be an enjoyable topic to debate.
And interesting. I never saw that personally between seven and chakotay, howevery I'm rewatching the series now. So I'll try and look at the more intracate details in there relationship to see if I can see build up. I do understand your point however the ultimate culmination of Seven's development is a romantic relationship. And yes the only real likely candidate was chakotay for a relationship with Seven.
I am thinking of rewatching it to see if I see a similar build up. But, personally, I don't recall it. Also, Seven's journey is interesting without the romantic relationship. It would have been a bit more of a game changer if her personal identity actually moved more towards individuality with her being independent in some big choice. Yeah, that was nebulous but that's my general idea.
Chakotay and Seven may make sense on some level. But, the way the episode played out, it didn't move in a way that connect with the arcs in my opinion. Obviously, YMMV.
Yss interesting, any ideas on what that final culmination of her individuality might be? What choice she might have to make? And yes fair point it was spontaneous. Unless we just can't see the build up between them, becuae I imagine if it is there it will be very subtle.
P.S. what does YMMV mean?
Your mileage may vary. Internet short hand for each person will probably react differently. In this case, for me, I don't especially care for Seven of Nine, even though there are facets of her character I find interesting. So, I can understand that others might like her episodes more because they find her more engaging or interesting, That's why my reaction versus others reaction will vary.
I see the thread has wandered from its original topic. But I have a Kes question that I don't think warrants starting a brand new thread.
When Kes leaves Voyager, she is no longer able to maintain corporeal form, as she was transforming into a new plane of existence.
Yet, when she returns in Fury, she is back to having a solid body again. And her threat to the structural integrity of the ship comes only when she is actively angry, and not as a simple by-product of her power, as before.
So, was it ever explained why she was back in a solid body again, as I don't recall an explanation for that on the episode.
When Kes leaves Voyager, she is no longer able to maintain corporeal form, as she was transforming into a new plane of existence.
Yet, when she returns in Fury, she is back to having a solid body again. And her threat to the structural integrity of the ship comes only when she is actively angry, and not as a simple by-product of her power, as before.
So, was it ever explained why she was back in a solid body again, as I don't recall an explanation for that on the episode.
There are two answers to that question, one for the "Star Trek Universe" and the other for the "Gray Universe" which means the place in time and space where we poor mortal beings are right now.
The answer to the "Star Trek Universe" option is:
Because it wasn't the real Kes!
The pathetic wreck we saw in that horribie episode was a being from a mirror universe, some evil-spirited alien pretending to be Kes or Suspiria in disguise. The real Kes was approached by Q shortly after the events in "The Gift", restored to normal with a human lifespan and sent forwards in time from Stardate 51008 (3 January2374) to Stardate 54003.88 (2 January 2377) where she was involved in a lot of adventures which finally led her back to Voyager for a brief visit and later on to the Alpha Quadrant where she's living on the planet New Carlisle.
Further information can be found on the Kes Website under the link "Kes Stories".
The answer to the "Gray Universe" option is:
The Three Stooges who are Brannon Braga, Bryan Fuller and Michael Taylor were so geared up by the thoughts of finally destroying the annoying character Kes and at the same time insult the fans of the character who did question their almighty decision to get rid of the character in the first place that they simply forgot or didn*t give a **** about such minor details. For them the total destruction of the character was the ultimate goal, not some silly things as a well-written plot or petty details.
Oh yes, I can!
I can write a story which do away with the badly written crap in that pathetic excuse for a Star Trek episode.
And I can clearly explain all the holes and continuity errors in that badly written story too.
As for the "ordeal", there was no "ordeal" at all! No explanations, nothing!
Similar threads
