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The Worst Decision by a Starfleet Cpt/Cdr.

At that point he had little choice, he really couldn't push them out of the airlock.
Picard could have returned to their home world and beamed them down to the airless surface. Picard earlier had no problem with the entire species suffocating as he stood by and did nothing.

Where is Picard's precious philosophy when he has to get his own hands bloody.
Even when the resources are not yours to take?
It was a Federation planet, the particles in the ring were the Federation's natural resource.

 
In "Mirror, Mirror," Starfleet needed the dilithium that was available on the Halkan planet. Kirk communicated with them to negotiate for it. They said no. With superior power at his disposal, he could have taken it anyway, but he didn't. He moved on. The end.

Was Starfleet of a hundred years later in such dire straits that they had to forcibly take the resources of the Bak'u planet?

This is yet another reason why I prefer the TOS era.

Kor
Kirk should have stolen the Dilithium, for the good of many.

@PhaserLightShow
 
Picard could have returned to their home world and beamed them down to the airless surface. Picard earlier had no problem with the entire species suffocating as he stood by and did nothing.
Well, I completely agree he was a total dick in that episode.
 
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Picard could have returned to their home world and beamed them down to the airless surface. Picard earlier had no problem with the entire species suffocating as he stood by and did nothing.

Where is Picard's precious philosophy when he has to get his own hands bloody.It was a Federation planet, the particles in the ring were the Federation's natural resource.

When did the planet join the Federation?
 
I'm getting the urge to do the unthinkable.... and watch INS again, so I can be better informed for this discussion.

:barf2:

Kor
Don't do it! You have so much to live for ;)

I don't care what damn point the film makes. I care about what I and others think concerning a movie.

@PhaserLightShow is glad @fireproof78 agrees with him!
Um, even if you don't care what point a film is making, I still try to be aware of it for the point of a discussion. If a film fails in making its point in a substantial way then I'll call it out. I can be generous in film's flawas, and can be very entertained in the process, but I also can reject a film outright even if I can see arguments for what the film is trying to say.
 
But the issue isn't black and white either, at least as presented. That's my larger point is the film does a terrible job of it, and everyone comes off looking rather dickish.
I don't think Picard came across as dickish at all. He put his morals before expedience, as he often does. I can appreciate that. Easy moral choices where you stand to lose nothing are not good moral choices.
 
I don't think Picard came across as dickish at all. He put his morals before expedience, as he often does. I can appreciate that. Easy moral choices where you stand to lose nothing are not good moral choices.
I suppose this is an agree to disagree point of the discussion. Like I said, I don't think the film portrayed it well, and I don't think the situation is purely black and white, as many moral choices often are.

But, it's fiction so I can understand it all the same.
 
Tabling Adults vs Children for the moment:

Posit: All children are equally valuable and valued equally.
Consequence: People protect their children equally.
Result: Choosing a child to rescue in a hypothetical scenario will be randomly distributed equally.
Conclusion: The value of a child's life overrides circumstances as a rule.

Here's a question:

Scenario I

A woman crashes her car into the lake with her two children X and Q. They are equidistant from her on opposite radii. She can only reach one in time to save it. How does she choose? (They are gender-neutral for this example).


Now while you mull this one over, answer this question first:
What would you expect the outcome of this survey to be (if conducted properly and scientifically)? Would you expect:

A) an even 50/50 probability tail
B) a slight tendency toward one over the other (random)
C) a slight tendency toward one over the other (specific)
D) a vastly different skew toward one over the other
E) both drown because the woman loves them equally​

Go ahead and answer now before reading ahead. I'll wait.

...


Scenario II


OK? Now let's try the question again, but in this example:

X is seven years old
Q is three months old

Would you expect:
A) an even 50/50 probability tail
B) a slight tendency toward one over the other (random)
C) a slight tendency toward one over the other (specific)
D) a vastly different skew toward one over the other
E) both drown because the woman loves them equally
Final Question: Which one does she save?


(Please withhold any spoilers for now).


Ok, and now for the results....

Scenario I:
All things being equal, this one is a coin flip. There is no difference in these theoretical children that we can base a decision on. Perhaps you considered factors like birth order, gender, whether they were twins, etc, but without these givens the test would come out to A) an even 50/50 probability tail. The "let them both drown" option might remain a negligible statistical outlier. We'll know why in a moment.

Scenario II:

X is seven years old
Q is three months old

In this survey, the results are:
D) a vastly different skew toward one over the other
The results very clearly favor the choosing of one child over the other.

Final Solution:
Which one does she save?
Most participants favored the Seven Year Old.

Why?

And here is the crux of the matter. In evolutionary terms, the seven year old has already survived many common risks associated with infancy and toddlerhood. This child clearly has a better pre-existing chance for overall survival. The infant still faces a multitude of threats to its survival. The mother intuitively, instantly and instinctually chooses the child with the best chance for - and here it is - reproductive fitness and survival of the species.

These are not higher-order moral choices; these choices sometimes cut to the most basic motivation of the human brain: survival. The options that give our genes the best chance for continuance. Everything else falls into that paradigm.


Posit: All children are equally valuable and valued equally. FALSE
Consequence:
People protect their children equally. FALSE
Result:
Choosing a child to rescue in a hypothetical scenario will be randomly distributed equally. FALSE
Conclusion:
The value of a child's life overrides circumstances as a rule. FALSE

The protection of life is not a matter of status nor ethics.
It is, at the most fundamental, instinctual biological level, a function of genetic reproduction. Sometimes the parent saves themselves. Sometimes they save the child. (Proof: Ever hear a flight safety presentation advise parents to put oxygen masks on themselves before tending their children)?

Conclusion: Society values the continuation of the species above the status of its individual components.
 
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Easy moral choices where you stand to lose nothing are not good moral choices.
And the billions pf people who would be helped medically by the particles, sucks to be them huh?

Why should people have to uproot their lives to travel to the particles, when some of the particles can be brought to them?
 
And the billions pf people who would be helped medically by the particles, sucks to be them huh?
Well, yes. Federation has supertech, it can take care of their citizens. That it could do so even better if they stole the planet from the Ba'ku is a poor argument.
Why should people have to uproot their lives to travel to the particles, when some of the particles can be brought to them?
Because the particles do not belong to them. This is not difficult. Why it is wrong to steal?
 
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Final Solution:
Which one does she save?
Most participants favored the Seven Year Old.

Why?

And here is the crux of the matter. In evolutionary terms, the seven year old has already survived many common risks associated with infancy and toddlerhood. This child clearly has a better pre-existing chance for overall survival. The infant still faces a multitude of threats to its survival. The mother intuitively, instantly and instinctually chooses the child with the best chance for - and here it is - reproductive fitness and survival of the species.

What in that hypothical situation it's a stranger, they can save the life of only one child do they go for the baby or the toddler?
 
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