• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Now that we've gotten Batman v Superman, what are your thoughts on the DCEU?

Now that there are so many "Cinematic Universe" films, both from Marvel and DC, I find it a better idea to judge these films as individuals rather than as a collective. Each film should stand on its own and have its a coherent plot with characters having proper motivation for doing whatever it is they're doing.
Sure, it is a good idea to judge movies individually, but at the same time, these are part part of a shared universe, so they are part of a part of a bigger whole. BvS was the big set up for that universe, so I just thought I'd share my thoughts and see what people were thinking about it now that we got the big set up.
 
Last edited:
Really, I think the GL film had a lot in common with the Berlanti shows, such as a lot of reverence for the comics mythology and a willingness to throw it all into the story. If anything, I think the main problem with the movie is that it tried to cram in too much of the GL mythos and ended up cluttered and unfocused as a result. The approach probably works better on TV because they have time to pace it out better. Or maybe Berlanti, Guggenheim, and Johns just learned from their mistakes on GL and therefore did a better job on TV.

I agree with this; however, there was another problem. I can't really figure out why (the special effects?, the acting, the direction?), but it was very difficult to take Hal and the Corps seriously. The attempts at humor came across as silly and there were too many unintentional comedic moments.

Trying to fit too much into the movie was also a problem. It would have worked much better as an Earth based story with Hector Hammond as the villain while leaving out the Corps entirely. If the Corps had to be introduced, it could have simply been as observers setting up plans to contact Jordan in the sequel.
 
There is obviously some setup for the infinity war but it's pretty subtle, if you don't know about it you probably wouldn't notice.

Meanwhile BvS stops in the middle of the movie to show off Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg, all that was missing was a card that says "Coming soon!".

????What the heck was Thor's excursion in AoS about then??????
 
I agree with this; however, there was another problem. I can't really figure out why (the special effects?, the acting, the direction?), but it was very difficult to take Hal and the Corps seriously. The attempts at humor came across as silly and there were too many unintentional comedic moments.

Trying to fit too much into the movie was also a problem. It would have worked much better as an Earth based story with Hector Hammond as the villain while leaving out the Corps entirely. If the Corps had to be introduced, it could have simply been as observers setting up plans to contact Jordan in the sequel.
I read GL: Secret Origin right before seeing the movie, and I still think a story directly, or at least cloesly based on that, with Hal and Sinestro hunting Atrocitus on Earth would have made a great movie.
 
I read GL: Secret Origin right before seeing the movie, and I still think a story directly, or at least cloesly based on that, with Hal and Sinestro hunting Atrocitus on Earth would have made a great movie.
Yes, that too. I wasn't really suggesting that the story HAD to have Hammond, just that it would have had better chance of success if it had been set on Earth with a single villain. That would have given it more time to flesh out Hal Jordan's character and the Earth based supporting cast as well as give audiences time to wrap their heads around the nature of the power ring.
 
There were an awful lot of contrivances involved to make them make sense, though.

Absent Thor 2, it made little sense for the heroes of Iron Man 3 and Cap 2 to not involve some or all of the other Avengers in each movie's plot devices.
What are you talking about?

IM3 was about Tony Stark's delayed reactions to his experiences in Avengers. Stark's experiences. There's absolutely no earthly reason for any of the other Avengers to be in the movie. Stark problems, Iron Man villains (Mandarin, AIM and Extremis). Even having Banner in the post credit scene was more cute than necessary.

Winter Soldier was Steve Rogers versus Hydra/Shield. The only members of the Avengers cast that needed to be there are the ones we got - Fury, Maria Hill and Black Widow - because they're all related to Shield. There would have been no point including Thor or the Hulk.

Marvel is rolling out its cinematic universe the way it does its comic universe: The primary characters have their own title series and they get together for the group series, but they don't go out of their way to guest star in each others' titles. Even with this next set, with Hulk guesting in the next Thor and the bulk of the Avengers guesting in the Civil War, it's a matter of "want to", not "have to."

What I meant by "It's not that hard" is that DC could be doing the exact same thing. Hell, they invented the concept, with the creation of both Justice Society and Justice League. The reason they're not has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with impatience. They want the universe now, so they're geared to getting it now, character building be damned. I don't care how good the individual movies are, after getting into that mindset it's going to leave the whole universe lacking...and keep DCEU in MCU's shadow.
 
What are you talking about?

IM3 was about Tony Stark's delayed reactions to his experiences in Avengers. Stark's experiences. There's absolutely no earthly reason for any of the other Avengers to be in the movie. Stark problems, Iron Man villains (Mandarin, AIM and Extremis). Even having Banner in the post credit scene was more cute than necessary.

Winter Soldier was Steve Rogers versus Hydra/Shield. The only members of the Avengers cast that needed to be there are the ones we got - Fury, Maria Hill and Black Widow - because they're all related to Shield. There would have been no point including Thor or the Hulk.

I'm saying absent stylistic choices like "Stark problems" and "Iron Man villains" realistically it made little sense for Stark not to involve the other Avengers for help considering he, Pepper, Happy, and Rhodey were almost killed and the damn President of the United States was kidnapped.

When Cap and Widow were on the run it made no sense to contact Stark?

The characters aren't supposed to know these are the standalone movies.
 
I'm saying absent stylistic choices like "Stark problems" and "Iron Man villains" realistically it made little sense for Stark not to involve the other Avengers for help considering he, Pepper, Happy, and Rhodey were almost killed and the damn President of the United States was kidnapped.

It made perfect sense given Stark's personality. He's an egotist who thinks he can solve all his problems on his own. In this case he did. The solutions were messy and destructive, but it's a comic book. That's kind of the point.

When Cap and Widow were on the run it made no sense to contact Stark?

Before they went on the run Cap found out Stark was helping Shield build the Insight Helicarriers. Why would you trust the genius helping the agency hunting you build their superweapons?

The characters aren't supposed to know these are the standalone movies.

Their knowledge or ignorance is irrelevant. They are standalone. The stories are about them beating the bad guys themselves. The beating the badguys together storyline is for the Avengers movies.
 
Last edited:
Absent Thor 2, it made little sense for the heroes of Iron Man 3 and Cap 2 to not involve some or all of the other Avengers in each movie's plot devices.

It makes sense in IM3, because Tony's alone and cut off from his support system for a lot of it -- and because even after The Avengers, he's still an arrogant loner who's prone to believe he can do it all himself. Note how ready he was to cut out the rest of the team (aside from Bruce) in Age of Ultron. And the climactic events proceeded too quickly for him to call on much support beyond his immediate circle.

And I think it makes sense in The Winter Soldier, because Cap has SHIELD as his support structure for the first part of the movie, and is then on the run and isolated afterward. He might not even have known if he could trust Stark, and he might not have known where to find Thor, who has no listed address or phone number.

Really, up until TWS, the Avengers were really just a SHIELD protocol. Cap, Widow, and Hawkeye were SHIELD agents first and foremost, Stark and Banner were independent contractors they occasionally called on, and Thor was a free agent whose comings and goings were unpredictable. Reading between the lines of the movies, I'd say that it wasn't until the fall of SHIELD that the Avengers really, well, assembled as an independent concern run by Stark, in order to fill the void left by SHIELD. Cap, Widow, Hawkeye, and Hill ended up working for Stark Industries/the Avengers full-time, presumably with Banner on board as Science Bro and occasional green muscle, and then Thor recruited them to help him find Loki's scepter and retrieve it from Hydra. And that's how we get from TWS to AoU. But before TWS, we still basically had SHIELD, Stark, Banner, and Thor all going their own separate ways. I think that does hold together as a logical progression in the narrative. Of course it's a contrivance, just like it's a contrivance in the comics that Superman doesn't clean up all of Gotham City's crime in an afternoon, but as contrivances go, it's a reasonably well-justified one.



I agree with this; however, there was another problem. I can't really figure out why (the special effects?, the acting, the direction?), but it was very difficult to take Hal and the Corps seriously. The attempts at humor came across as silly and there were too many unintentional comedic moments.

That would probably come down more to the director, I suppose. Humor is tricky.

Trying to fit too much into the movie was also a problem. It would have worked much better as an Earth based story with Hector Hammond as the villain while leaving out the Corps entirely. If the Corps had to be introduced, it could have simply been as observers setting up plans to contact Jordan in the sequel.

I've heard (and shared) this sentiment in the past. It would've been better to do an Earth-based first film and just hint at the larger Corps, then save the Corps for a sequel. That's what the comics did -- it was quite a while before Hal started meeting other GLs and learning about the Guardians and Oa. (One nice detail in the movie is that the first other Lantern he met was Tomar-Re, as in the comics.)

Of course, there were other things the movie fumbled, like the actual superheroics. Pro tip: if the villains spend several minutes endangering or killing a whole bunch of people and the hero then belatedly shows up and saves exactly one person, then the hero is doing it wrong. Extra points off if the one person the hero bothers to save is someone who might sleep with him. (Although this applies far more to Man of Steel than to GL.)

Still, I've never felt Green Lantern was that bad. I think it was an okay movie, but it suffered from coming out in the same year as three superlative Marvel movies. If it had come out five or six years earlier, around the time that we were getting Elektra and Fantastic Four and X-Men: The Last Stand, I think it would've been seen as pretty good by comparison.
 
I wonder how different the attitude towards the DCEU would be if we got it before the MCU?
 
I wonder how different the attitude towards the DCEU would be if we got it before the MCU?
Unchanged, if both companies had rolled out their universes in the same way. Timing is not the problem. It's Execution.

It's said constantly that DC has the three most iconic characters in comics history, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. If they had delivered a shared universe with those characters with the same patience Marvel has shown, they would OWN the box office. OWN. There wouldn't be stories about one of their movies making half a billion dollars and still being a worry for the studio.
 
Fury told Rogers not to trust anyone and he didn't even trust Natasha at first. He might have been able to go to Banner, as his was one of the names that's Sitwell spilled, but how could he know, really know, that he could trust Stark?
 
I wonder how different the attitude towards the DCEU would be if we got it before the MCU?

I doubt we would have. The reason the MCU was possible is because Marvel founded its own studio dedicated exclusively to adapting Marvel properties, so they had the focus and unified strategy necessary to make such a shared universe possible. Now every other studio is trying to copy its success, but none of them have really proven they're able to pull off something similar. The X-Men films come the closest to being a successful multi-series franchise, but their solo films have been hit-and-miss. The various other "cinematic universes" out there are still either just starting out or still in the preliminary stage, and there have already been at least two abandoned plans to do cinematic universes (the one meant to spin off from Green Lantern, with Angela Bassett's Amanda Waller as the Nick Fury-like unifying figure, and Sony's Spider-Man/Venom/Sinister Six franchise that was sidelined after ASM2 tanked). Other studios just aren't really built to do that sort of thing, and I doubt they even would've tried if Marvel hadn't set the precedent.
 
I agree with this; however, there was another problem. I can't really figure out why (the special effects?, the acting, the direction?), but it was very difficult to take Hal and the Corps seriously. The attempts at humor came across as silly and there were too many unintentional comedic moments.

Trying to fit too much into the movie was also a problem. It would have worked much better as an Earth based story with Hector Hammond as the villain while leaving out the Corps entirely. If the Corps had to be introduced, it could have simply been as observers setting up plans to contact Jordan in the sequel.

I really hate to say it, but as flawed as GL was... it still worked a whole lot better for me than BvS did. And it actually had (gasp!) some pretty fun and thrilling superhero moments in it as well.
 
I'm definitely not going spend two hours watching her running around the trenches of the Western Front.
Maybe she'll take on the Red Baron in her...invisible biplane...?

Stark and Banner were independent contractors
"HULK...CONTRACT!!!!!"

He might have been able to go to Banner
Still, if you're trying to keep a low profile while unraveling a shadowy conspiracy, Banner might not have the skill set that you're looking for....

More seriously, even if they thought they could trust the other Avengers, since the conspiracy was in SHIELD, there would have been a serious risk that any channels they might have used to get in touch with the other Avengers were being monitored by SHIELD. Ringing up Stark might have gotten a SHIELD strike force to their location faster than Iron Man.
 
When Cap and Widow were on the run it made no sense to contact Stark?

I didn't have an issue with that as Steve Rogers/Captain America found out Hydra had been manipulating world events since the end of WWII (70+ years) - up until after the fight with the Winter Soldier (where Sitwell was killed) - he also thought Nick Fury had been assassinated. Fury's last words (via text in Cap's apartment - "Trust no one."

Up to that point Cap had built a relationship with his strike team and had trusted them - but now they were actively attempting to kill him and Black Widow. After Fury's assassination (as he saw it - NO ONE could be trusted; and even his encounters with the Black Widow showed he didn't really trust her and that started to thaw when she told him of The Winter Soldier's operational history (as she new it.) Contacting the Falcon was a gamble as Cap saw it too, most likely, but he was desperate; and through the film, they both proved to him by their actions they could be trusted. I had no issues with believing Cap didn't contact any of the other Avengers (and especially Tony Stark as Cap didn't agree with a lot of his methods) because he wasn't sure Tony could be trusted. [And IMO - Hydra would have had no issues with members sacrificing themselves during the Loki/Thanos invasion of Earth in 'Avengers' as Hydra DOES want to take over/control the planet; but if the aliens and Loki/Thanos succeeded or wiped out mankind they loose too.]
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top