The Mirror Universe Does not exist

[stardream]

Are any of the ideas we mentioned similar to the one you were thinking of?

Kor

No but thanks for the efforts anyway. I suppose this person must have been posting on Reddit.

What is meant by 'later Trek treated the mirror Universe as a 'real' thing'? Does this mean it was referred to in the 'prime' Universe? I admit I'm not up on the details.

 

[Kor]

Yes, but would the Halkans really let Kirk know it was a test.

In TOS storytelling terms, I'm sure they would have. "Arena" and "Errand of Mercy" are examples of episodes where it's revealed toward the end that advanced aliens are involved in the events going on in the story.

No but thanks for the efforts anyway. I suppose this person must have been posting on Reddit.

What is meant by 'later Trek treated the mirror Universe as a 'real' thing'? Does this mean it was referred to in the 'prime' Universe? I admit I'm not up on the details.

Yes, Deep Space Nine had several episodes that followed up on "Mirror, Mirror" and depicted events in the mirror universe. And then there was the Enterprise two-parter "In a Mirror, Darkly" which retroactively tied "Mirror, Mirror" and "The Tholian Web" together (!).

But if we take TOS as a self-contained show, then we can question whether the mirror universe actually existed, or if it was some bizarre one-time fluke/illusion/whatever caused by the Halkans and/or the ion storm and transporter.

Kor

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Crossover"
"Through the Looking Glass"
"Shattered Mirror"
"Resurrection"
"The Emperor's New Cloak"
Deep Space Nine had 5 mirror universe stories.

"In a Mirror, Darkly"
"In a Mirror, Darkly Part II"

Enterprise had 2, but it's just one story. A two parter.

Voyager was a gutless no hoper.

0 Mirror Universe Episodes.

 

[hux]

TNG didn't either.

DS9 had too many in my opinion. Yawn.

 

[Longinus]

Parallel universes obviously exist in Trek, but I'm less certain that all the 'mirror episodes' actually take place in one specific parallel universe. It is equally possible that they all happen in different unrelated parallel universes.

 

[PhaserLightShow]

No but thanks for the efforts anyway. I suppose this person must have been posting on Reddit.

What is meant by 'later Trek treated the mirror Universe as a 'real' thing'? Does this mean it was referred to in the 'prime' Universe? I admit I'm not up on the details.

Yes, in the Shatnerverse version of the prime universe (in "Preserver") they mention Tiberius (the mirror Kirk) and the other parts of the Mirror. And would that theory you mentioned have anything to do with Abhrams Alternate-Mirror Star Trek? It does exist. Just take the 2009 universe and imagine Zefram Cochrane shot the Vulcans.

 

[Kor]

Parallel universes obviously exist in Trek, but I'm less certain that all the 'mirror episodes' actually take place in one specific parallel universe. It is equally possible that they all happen in different unrelated parallel universes.

DS9 made it clear that the mirror universe in that show was supposed to be the same one depicted in "Mirror, Mirror," as there were references to Kirk crossing over and showing Spock a new way, etc.

Kor

 

[stardream]

This guy didn't mention Abrams.

The most basic premise was the Mirror Universe does not exist until someone from the Prime Universe is forced into that dimension...reality...thingie.

It is for all intents and purposes 'real' for those who experience it but in truth it is only 'real' for those specific moments. The minute the prime characters leave, it ceases to exist.

Sort of like Brigadoon I suppose.

I'm still looking.

 

[PhaserLightShow]

DS9 made it clear that the mirror universe in that show was supposed to be the same one depicted in "Mirror, Mirror," as there were references to Kirk crossing over and showing Spock a new way, etc.

Kor

I disagree. With both of you (Kor and Longinus). DS9 did not say it was the same universe. But it is definitely not completely unrelated. The universe in "Mirror, Mirror" could have split off further (more universes) leading to the one in "Through the Looking Glass" and "Shattered Mirror".

 

[PhaserLightShow]

This guy didn't mention Abrams.

The most basic premise was the Mirror Universe does not exist until someone from the Prime Universe is forced into that dimension...reality...thingie.

It is for all intents and purposes 'real' for those who experience it but in truth it is only 'real' for those specific moments. The minute the prime characters leave, it ceases to exist.

Sort of like Brigadoon I suppose.

I'm still looking.

You mean like Schrödinger's cat? The cat isn't dead or alive until you look. It is possible, but is equally possible that the Prime Universe does not exist until someone from the Mirror Universe steps over. And thank you for notifying me that the person on the site (Reddit, you said it may have been) did not mention the 2009 movie.

 

[PhaserLightShow]

In TOS storytelling terms, I'm sure they would have. "Arena" and "Errand of Mercy" are examples of episodes where it's revealed toward the end that advanced aliens are involved in the events going on in the story.



Yes, Deep Space Nine had several episodes that followed up on "Mirror, Mirror" and depicted events in the mirror universe. And then there was the Enterprise two-parter "In a Mirror, Darkly" which retroactively tied "Mirror, Mirror" and "The Tholian Web" together (!).

But if we take TOS as a self-contained show, then we can question whether the mirror universe actually existed, or if it was some bizarre one-time fluke/illusion/whatever caused by the Halkans and/or the ion storm and transporter.

Kor

Yes in TOS storytelling terms, but I am not referring to the method of storytelling, I am referring to what makes sense.

 

[Kor]

I disagree. With both of you (Kor and Longinus). DS9 did not say it was the same universe. But it is definitely not completely unrelated. The universe in "Mirror, Mirror" could have split off further (more universes) leading to the one in "Through the Looking Glass" and "Shattered Mirror".

The DS9 episode "Crossover" made it quite clear that it was the same universe. Mirror Kira said the following to "our" Kira:

Almost a century ago, a Terran starship Captain named James Kirk accidentally exchanged places with his counterpart from your side due to a transporter accident. Our Terrans were barbarians then, but their Empire was strong. While your Kirk was on this side, he met a Vulcan named Spock and somehow had a profound influence on him. Afterwards, Spock rose to Commander in Chief of the Empire by preaching reforms, disarmament, peace. It was quite a remarkable turnabout for his people. Unfortunately for them, when Spock had completed all these reforms, his empire was no longer in any position to defend itself against us.

Source: episode transcript at http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/443.htm

Kor

 

[Longinus]

DS9 made it clear that the mirror universe in that show was supposed to be the same one depicted in "Mirror, Mirror," as there were references to Kirk crossing over and showing Spock a new way, etc.

Hmm. Good point. But they didn't have cloaking devices in the MU in DS9, yet they did have them in Enterprise episode 'In a Mirror Darkly.'

Then again, maybe this is just part of ST:Enterprise intentionally trolling the cloaking device continuity...

 

[PhaserLightShow]

The DS9 episode "Crossover" made it quite clear that it was the same universe. Mirror Kira said the following to "our" Kira:


Source: episode transcript at http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/443.htm

Kor

That does not preclude the possibility of it being a branch. I am arguing it is part of the same main universe as the Mirror, but after "Mirror, Mirror" it branches off. Captain Kirk did enter the Mirror. But then something happened afterwards to change everything. I am arguing that: in one version (possibly the original), the Terrans did not lose to the Alliance. I am arguing that this is not the original mirror universe in DS9. There is no evidence either way. Perhaps one Mirror Universe no longer exists. Not all. Yes, I have to assume that it is the same but I would like to postulate a theory.

 

[hux]

You could make the claim that every morning when you wake up, you've been moved to an alternative universe that's only slightly different to the last one.

But to what end?

 

[PhaserLightShow]

The DS9 episode "Crossover" made it quite clear that it was the same universe. Mirror Kira said the following to "our" Kira:


Source: episode transcript at http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/443.htm

Kor

I postulate that after "Mirror, Mirror" the universe branches off. Kirk went into the Mirror. But maybe in the original Mirror Universe, the Terrans didn't lose to the Alliance. I argue that the Mirror universe is in DS9, but not necessarily the original. I argue there may be multiple Mirror universes and DS9 may not have occurred in the original.

 

[Longinus]

You could make the claim that every morning when you wake up, you've been moved to an alternative universe that's only slightly different to the last one.

But to what end?

If many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is correct, we are all branching in different universes multiple times in a nanosecond!

 

[Avro Arrow]

In the story "In a Mirror, Darkly" (ENT) they explain what caused the Mirror Universe. What caused it? The Borg didn't come to invade Earth in the 21st century. So, the Enterprise-E didn't come. So Zefram Cochrane didn't become a better person (and make friends with the Vulcans under Jean-Luc's influence). Instead, "Zef" shot the Vulcans. They died, so the Empire came into existence (under his influence). Everyone else decided to follow the "Man who Invented Warp Drive". The Mirror Universe started because of something in the 24th Century (in the prime-normal). Before the time when the Borg would have come to Earth, everything was the same. Same universe. When Cochrane killed the Vulcans, the first major difference began and they really split off.

I don't think the intention with that scene was to show that it was the "start" of the Mirror universe... rather just that Cochrane was already "evil" and this was just the "mirror" version of an event we were already familiar with. The implication from the opening montage is that the Mirror universe existed long before that opening scene.

DS9 made it clear that the mirror universe in that show was supposed to be the same one depicted in "Mirror, Mirror," as there were references to Kirk crossing over and showing Spock a new way, etc.

Imagine it... a million different mirror universes... all with a million different non-mirror Kirks crossing over. The conceit of these parallel universes in Trek is that similar things generally happen in them, so why not this, too?

Hmm. Good point. But they didn't have cloaking devices in the MU in DS9, yet they did have them in Enterprise episode 'In a Mirror Darkly.'

And actually, they *did* have a cloak in the MU in "Crossover", but didn't by "The Emperor's New Cloak". So, retcon? Or slightly different MU?

The most basic premise was the Mirror Universe does not exist until someone from the Prime Universe is forced into that dimension...reality...thingie.

Do you recall if this was definitely something you read online? Or is it possible it's from one of those "Best of Trek" compilations, or something like that?

 

[Guy Gardener]

You could make the claim that every morning when you wake up, you've been moved to an alternative universe that's only slightly different to the last one.

But to what end?

Have you read Job?

A boy and girl are randomly sliding between universes, for some reason they spend a couple months washing plates to save up money to get to a final destination... Then they slide universes again and the currency they'd saved up is completely unusable because the faces on all the notes and coins are wrong.

 

[stardream]

Do you recall if this was definitely something you read online? Or is it possible it's from one of those "Best of Trek" compilations, or something like that?

It was something I read online and it wasn't that long ago.