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CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

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My newest analogy:

It's kind of like speeding. Sure, it is technically against the law to go even 1 mile over the speed limit, but there is an "unwritten rule" among *most*(key word) cops that they aren't going to pull you over unless you are going 10 or more over. So yes, other fan films may technically be speeding a little, but Axanar was going 20 miles over the speed limit. And the cop isn't mean or a bad guy for pulling over the jerk that was going that fast.
Alec went 100 mph over the speed limit by referring to Axanar as a fully professional independent Star Trek film. That is what in my days as a highway patrol officer we would write up as "Reckless Driving" as opposed to speeding, with a much higher fine and possible jail time. It also bumped the violation from traffic ticket to misdemeanor. And he still wonders why he is being singled out for a lawsuit.
 
I had to laugh at the TrekMovie Facebook page after Carlos Pedraza put up his article about the current state of things. One person calling for equal time for the Axanar POV--I was tempted to reply that this is not a political election--and another decrying Wil Wheaton's speaking against Axanar, calling him the former child actor. As he's still acting, the former part I can only assume is that he's no longer a child. I'd have replied to both, but I fear two things. One, that my points made here would fall on blind eyes, and two, that these imbeciles would then start arguing with ME on Facebook, and I get quite enough of that from people I LIKE.
 
I had to laugh at the TrekMovie Facebook page after Carlos Pedraza put up his article about the current state of things. One person calling for equal time for the Axanar POV--I was tempted to reply that this is not a political election--and another decrying Wil Wheaton's speaking against Axanar, calling him the former child actor. As he's still acting, the former part I can only assume is that he's no longer a child. I'd have replied to both, but I fear two things. One, that my points made here would fall on blind eyes, and two, that these imbeciles would then start arguing with ME on Facebook, and I get quite enough of that from people I LIKE.

Trying to have a reasonable discussion/debate with the acolytes is useless. The psychology links that @muCephi posted yesterday do well to explain why.
 
You know, eventually it stops being hubris or blind ambition or mission creep and becomes full on fraud. I'd like to find out if and/or when that line was crossed.

I don't think that's going to happen unless the California Attorney General's office gets involved and that won't happen unless donors start reporting it.
 
I don't think that's going to happen unless the California Attorney General's office gets involved and that won't happen unless donors start reporting it.

That stage doesn't seem quite ripe... Axanar keeps finding ways to make the outcome seem ambiguous to donors (and to any AG who may wish to prosecute), who in turn I believe stay their hand for now. When the maneuvering is exhausted and the film is definitively forever ended, then I would expect some donors to raise the issue. I think their case can be based on not receiving notice of the unusual risks of lawsuit which Axanar had to have known their behavior would create. The Kickstarter risks statement is memorialized on Archive.org. The statement says there is always a risk CBS could shut it down but that the Axanar staff are all professionals who know what they are doing and who have worked with CBS (if I recall correctly).
 
You know, eventually it stops being hubris or blind ambition or mission creep and becomes full on fraud. I'd like to find out if and/or when that line was crossed.
An accusation of fraud is very strong, especially if one believes the person doing it knows it's fraud. Axanar did seem to skate along that line, though I think they honestly believed they were in the right. That said, believing they're in the right and weren't trying to defraud would be no defense for a fraud charge.

Given his track record, I'm just going to stick with my prior-stated belief that he's just a bad businessman who has spent years trying to strike it rich with "one great idea." That, and like an amazing number of otherwise intelligent people in business, he doesn't know as much about law or business as he thinks he does.

There are probably two things Peters' experience teaches us all if we want to run our own business: have a good lawyer on retainer and hire a good accountant. And, use them often. Don't make a decision without them. They are worth every penny.
 
Really? It would be here.
Well, this is where I got in trouble for not being precise (and opting for grad school over law school 20 years ago). I did a quick check, and yeah, fraud is always considered intentional, but a person can be misrepresenting things, deliberately or not, and that would be fraud, too. So in that sense, I meant that it could be Peters was misrepresenting what he was doing out of ignorance that what he was, allegedly, being fraudulent. In that sense, I would think claiming I had no intent to defraud would be a weak defense, at least, because I'm still negligent of misrepresenting myself.

There are better people than I lurking out there who can clear those waters up even more.
 
One wonders whether Lord Alec received too much of this advice at some point........

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Well, this is where I got in trouble for not being precise (and opting for grad school over law school 20 years ago). I did a quick check, and yeah, fraud is always considered intentional, but a person can be misrepresenting things, deliberately or not, and that would be fraud, too. So in that sense, I meant that it could be Peters was misrepresenting what he was doing out of ignorance that what he was, allegedly, being fraudulent. In that sense, I would think claiming I had no intent to defraud would be a weak defense, at least, because I'm still negligent of misrepresenting myself.

There are better people than I lurking out there who can clear those waters up even more.
Fraud can be either civil or criminal, and that makes things (more) confusing. This is more likely to be civil (but see infra). Hang on, I'll get there. If you ignore the ad at the end of this article, this actually a pretty good summary of which is which.

The main gist of it is a purposeful misrepresentation of a material fact, intended to mislead, which the plaintiff (or the public, in many instance of criminal fraud) relied upon and suffered actual damages therefrom.​
  • Civil - it's an intentional tort. Damage must be shown.
  • Criminal - generally brought for cases of trying to defraud the public. Doesn't matter if the fraud was successful. This is racketeering but it can also be bankruptcy fraud.
Here's civil. Let's say you tell me you're a famous book agent and you're going to get my next work shopped around and published and I'm gonna make a mint. I rely on you - and I don't query anywhere. I just let you do your thing. Furthermore, let's say it's a nonfiction work which is very time-sensitive, say, a bio of John Kasich. I rely on you. You don't get me my book deal, and, in fact, you spent the time you were allegedly trying to work for me getting a nice tan in Aruba. Sadness ensues. Do I have the elements of the tort? You betcha. You made a purposeful misrepresentation. You intended to mislead me (you meanie, you). I relied on what you said. But what are my damages? After all, I might not have been published either way. But - here's where it gets interesting - I could have had other benefits from querying my work independently of you, including establishing a reputation with reputable publishers and agents. The amount of damages may turn out to be small. It could even be a buck. But it's enough to meet the threshold. Standard of proof is higher than that in most civil cases (including IP infringement): clear and convincing evidence.

Here's criminal. Let's say you send a document that looks a lot like a medical bill to my aged parents (for shame!). Everything looks in order. You just need my Dad's Social Security number. He doesn't check closely (the dude is, after all, turning 85 in about 6 weeks), and sends the information to you before my mother can stop him or intercept the mail. You steal his identity, and order a credit card in his name, etc. You have defrauded my father, yes, but you've also defrauded the public, by pretending to be him (e. g. the credit card company is also a victim, the retailers where you shop in my Dad's name are victims, etc. It's a mess). This site gives a good rundown on identity theft and other forms of criminal fraud. Standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt.

Civil means monetary damages. Criminal means possibly restitution, and even jail time. It's usually a felony.

#FunFact - the difference between a misdemeanor and a felony is that a felony can bring a year or more of jail time. This is even if the sentence ends up being less than that; it's sufficient if it's possible. The year can't be an accumulated amount of time from a bunch of shorter-term misdemeanors.
 
Fraud can be either civil or criminal, and that makes things (more) confusing.

I am certainly wondering whether the "risks" section of the 2nd Kickstarter, having mentioned the CBS ownership of IP as a risk, but NOT having mentioned the contradiction between CBS' "make no money" requirement/fan film precedent, and Axanar's open request in the Kickstarter to use the funds for a for profit soundstage and for salaries,

a) can be reasonably established as a substantive risk knowable by Axanar at the time of the fundraising,
b) was deliberately omitted by Axanar from the list of risks.
 
I am certainly wondering whether the "risks" section of the 2nd Kickstarter, having mentioned the CBS ownership of IP as a risk, but NOT having mentioned the contradiction between CBS' "make no money" requirement/fan film precedent, and Axanar's open request in the Kickstarter to use the funds for a for profit soundstage and for salaries,

a) can be reasonably established as a substantive risk knowable by Axanar at the time of the fundraising,
b) was deliberately omitted by Axanar from the list of risks.

Is it a material misrepresentation? It would certainly be material, but is it a misrepresentation? A misunderstanding of what CBS is saying might not be one. Did donors rely on it? Maybe.

This is for a fact finder to pursue in discovery. BTW, the depositions and whatnot from a civil case could be entered in a criminal matter (they might get over the hearsay hurdle, particularly given that depositions are sworn statements) and they might be sufficient to prove the matter. Yes, the standard of proof is lower for civil than for criminal, so these could be a part of an as-yet unmade criminal claim.
 
Is it a material misrepresentation? It would certainly be material, but is it a misrepresentation? A misunderstanding of what CBS is saying might not be one. Did donors rely on it? Maybe.

This is for a fact finder to pursue in discovery. BTW, the depositions and whatnot from a civil case could be entered in a criminal matter (they might get over the hearsay hurdle, particularly given that depositions are sworn statements) and they might be sufficient to prove the matter. Yes, the standard of proof is lower for civil than for criminal, so these could be a part of an as-yet unmade criminal claim.

Axanar has maintained that CBS was "not telling them anything" but the public statements by CBS seem clear enough.

I agree the emails might ferret it out, as might depositions if an AG case is brought. I have less than complete confidence, however, that given all the wiggling on everything else, the emails are complete anymore. If this should happen to be true, CBS might have to prove there are omissions in what they receive, and then subpoena backups, and that availability is at the mercy of the hosting company.

A real ringer in this would be if CBS had relevant emails with the Axanar project / meeting notes of meetings with the Axanar project, and THESE showed Axanar had been put on notice/clarified, even partially, about boundaries.
 
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Is it a material misrepresentation? It would certainly be material, but is it a misrepresentation? A misunderstanding of what CBS is saying might not be one. Did donors rely on it? Maybe.

This is for a fact finder to pursue in discovery. BTW, the depositions and whatnot from a civil case could be entered in a criminal matter (they might get over the hearsay hurdle, particularly given that depositions are sworn statements) and they might be sufficient to prove the matter. Yes, the standard of proof is lower for civil than for criminal, so these could be a part of an as-yet unmade criminal claim.
I have no memory of Alec ever stating in any of the crowdfunding campaigns that "Axanar is being operated as a non profit." It's only recently he was that explicit. Material misrepresentation?
 
Axanar has maintained that CBS was "not telling them anything" but the public statements by CBS seem clear enough.

I agree the emails might ferret it out, as might depositions if an AG case is brought. I have less than complete confidence, however, that given all the wiggling on everything else, the emails are complete anymore. If this should happen to be true, CBS might have to prove there are omissions in what they receive, and then subpoena backups, and that availability is at the mercy of the hosting company.

A real ringer in this would be if CBS had relevant emails with the Axanar project / meeting notes of meetings with the Axanar project, and THESE showed Axanar had been put on notice/clarified, even partially, about boundaries.
I seriously doubt ANYTHING was 'put in writing/e-mail' by CBS regarding Star Trek fan because such could be inferred as some sort of implicit authorization of 'fan films' in general.
 
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