Klingons in the TNG Era Treks

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

I still can't fathom what was "honorable" about the TOS Romulans. Klingons paid at least lip service to the treaties they signed - Romulans in TOS and TAS were defined by their repeated betrayals, treaty violations, and general backstabbing nature, and their sole TOS movie appearance followed the pattern.

Mark Lenard's Romulan doesn't strike me as an exception at all. The plot called for a Nazi submarine commander, even if (as the cliche went) he wasn't an eager Nazi himself, and that's what was delivered: a villain serving the goals of the villains, doing nothing but dirty underhanded things to defeat the heroic heroes. If anything, he was a bastard of a villain, talking treason against his superiors on top of everything else!

Loyalty to nation and willingness to self-sacrifice for it, no matter your doubts, is one type of (classical) concept of honor. It's almost been entirely discredited in the west now, owing to the reputation that nationalism has gained in the 20th century, as a byword for "Nazi". But the ancient Romans would have understood his willingness to carry out his duty, and self-destruct rather than be captured. Or the Japanese, with their tension between ninjo (human sentiment) and giri (duty). Kirk can respect it, because he is also bound by a similar loyalty to Starfleet and the UFP, albeit they are liberal bodies.

 

[velour]

The Duras are a good example of a truly dishonorable House, with their smears of the House of Mogh and bringing the Romulans in, even knowing that this might make the Klingon Empire to some extent puppets of Romulus, all for nothing but their own aggrandizement.

It seems to me that Klingon honor, in practice, is in the eye of the beholder.

From Duras and his supporters point of view, they probably see Gowran and his faction as the dishonorable ones. Afterall, it is Gowran who is in cahoots with a foreign power, the Feds. Not only that, but Gowran has empowered an alien foreigner, Picard, to interfere in internal Klingon affairs by having Picard be the arbiter of succession. Isn't that the height of dishonor?

Oddly enough, Toral, in Redemption, sounded the most honorable when he asked Gowran and the rest of the Klingon oligarchs, "Does the Federation dictate Klingon destiny or do we? Follow me and I will show you honor."

Unfortunately, for Toral, might made right. Gowran defeated the rebellion by the Duras faction, so Gowran was able to define what honorable meant in that situation.

Thanks for the thorough clarification! I can see your viewpoint well now.



...Or then just makes it up as he goes. After all, these complex rules and principles only arise as a story point when they hinder Worf from doing what he thinks is the right thing. And when that happens, Worf doesn't play by the rules - he plays the rules. Defying your superior is dishonorable, but so is letting the killer of your beloved live, so Worf elevates himself into the position of choosing, ignores his oaths to Starfleet, and commits murder.



Worf is certainly honest to a fault, but loyalty? He is always getting Picard in a jam by being disloyal. He grabs more power than ought to be his, trying to do Odo's work for him. He engages in personal vendettas that may be part of the honor code but nevertheless are just personal indulgence in practice. And bravery is more or less the opposite of his cowardly adherence to a code dictated by his superiors. Except, of course, when he shies away from his duties for personal reasons. I wonder whether Worf is torn by his contradicting his inner honor codes there, or just thinking that he's the ultimate judge of that stuff?

Worf is our very own Alonso Quixano, a nutcase who reads too many pseudohistorical stories and decides to become virtuous, in terms of his personal interpretation of those works of fiction. His self-elevation to sainthood wins him no points from real Klingons across the spectrum: free thinkers like K'Ehleyr, opportunists like Gowron, hard-working disadvantageds like his brother, sympathetic bluecollars like Martok. That he relentlessly fights his windmills and promotes his fictional honor code has the incidental effect of him doing some good, but his virtues are not those of the western humans, any more than they are those of the Klingons. Which is the great tragedy of his life, as no matter where he goes, he is forced to live with people who find his antics tedious rather than virtuous.

Timo Saloniemi

You are right about Worf.

Wasn't Worf really incorporating human (Federation) values into his idea of what honor meant? His concept of honor wasn't the same as what a "real" Klingon might have in mind.

Worf is full of himself with his moral superiority. Worf may be biologically Klingon, but he is culturally human who likes to play the role of an "honorable" Klingon.

Worf couldn't hack it in Klingon society. So he came running back to the arms of Picard and the safety and comfort of Starfleet at the end of Redemption.

Worf essentially committed homicide when he killed a number of his Klingon opponents. He justified it in the name of honor. So is he any better or more "honorable" than any other Klingon. Honor is in the eye of the beholder.

By the way, would Worf consider it honorable for him to kill a Starfleet crewmate if that crewmate were to diss him? In Klingon society, I guess that would be ok, but in Starfleet that would be unacceptable.

Honor is an excuse to use when it is convenient. Worf wants to have it both ways and every which way. I guess in Worf's mind, he is the most honorable Klingon in the universe.

 

[MacLeod]

Well it was actually K'mpec that named Picard as arbitor of successor. The same K'mpec who allowed the High Council to cover up that it was Druas' father that was the traitor and not Worf's.

But perhaps K'mpec by naming Picard as arbitor he was hoping that Picard wouldn't allow Duras to become chancellor.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

From Duras and his supporters point of view, they probably see Gowran and his faction as the dishonorable ones. Afterall, it is Gowran who is in cahoots with a foreign power, the Feds. Not only that, but Gowran has empowered an alien foreigner, Picard, to interfere in internal Klingon affairs by having Picard be the arbiter of succession. Isn't that the height of dishonor?

But from a strictly legalistic perspective of what honor is (i.e. breaking your word, etc), the Klingon Empire signed an agreement with the Federation (incidentally; not with the Romulans) - hence, to break it without cause would be dishonorable. Seeing Gowron as being in cahoots with a foreign power isn't honor in this sense, but xenophobia.

 

[velour]

I assume some factions within the Klingon empire were not in favor of the agreement with the Federation. Many Klingons might have viewed the agreement with the Federation as an act of weakness and submission by the empire.

The empire was on its knees and it acted out of desperation when it made that agreement. Ordinary Klingons might have viewed the agreement as an act of dishonor, and would like nothing more than to scrap it. But the Klingon power establishment, which the Gowran faction is a part of, has embedded itself to the agreement, partly as a means to stay in power.

I believe if the Duras faction had come out on top of the civil war, they may have ended the agreement in a legitimate way. There is nothing dishonorable about wanting to scrap the agreement.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

In certain old cultures, word and faithfulness to agreements, and the binding nature of promises was paramount. It isn't the only system of honor, but it's one the west is very familiar with. In the context of this interpretation of honor - your word as your bond - loyalty to your liege and his decisions - etc - the Klingon Empire would have to honor the UFP even if they bargained from a position of weakness - because that's just the cards they were dealt; fate had it that Praxis exploded.

No doubt some Klingons, for jingoistic reasons, would have resented the treaty, but honor in the above sense, would have nothing to do with it.

 

[velour]

For better or for worse, the meaning of honor is in the eye of the beholder.

As I mentioned in my previous post, there are probably many Klingons who viewed the treaty with the Federation as an act of dishonor. However, it is not just the how the treaty came about that may be considered dishonorable. From what I can tell, the treaty has had very negative impacts on the Empire.

As for the terms of the treaty, I assume there is an opt-out clause within it, which would legally allow the Klingons to get out of the agreement. The Klingons could opt out with honor.

A present day example would be the "in or out of the EU" referendum that the British will be voting on soon. The UK may have been a signatory to the treaty that made them a member of the EU. But apparently, it has the right to opt out of the EU. Circumstances change over time. The terms of any treaty may no longer be appropriate.

 

[MacLeod]

But we did see the Klingons withdraw from the Khitomer accords in DSN.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

Because in their view they had been broken by the other party. (Or that was the excuse).

 

[Longinus]

It is also worth considering how much the Klingons consider the honour to apply when dealing with non-Klingons.

They run a huge interstellar empire, yet we almost never see their subject races. On few occasions they're shown, they're living subjugated on their own planet (or on a penal colony.) Klingons obviously do not consider them as equals. BTW, maybe it is these subjects races that make Klingons as warrior elite possible. All boring jobs are done by conquered aliens and Klingons can concentrate on important things such as fighting, politics and opera.

 

[Drone]

As somewhat fellow travelers, who dealt with their inner conflicts similarly in some ways at least, have there been some specific threads, or at least substantive musings in other ones, in which posters have compared and contrasted the backgrounds and personalities of Worf and Torres? Thoughts can be offered here as well, naturally.

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

Worf embraced what he thought was Klingon culture - the typical immigrant with a rosey eyed view of the old country; on a quest for what he thinks is his identity - perhaps not realizing how much better the new society is, how much it has shaped him, and overlooking all the flaws of the old one. Ezri pointed it out to him; "Klingon culture is dying; let it die".

Torres rejected what she thought was Klingon culture - seeing much of it as hypocritical and bullying - seeing that the new culture was much better to her, but still having problems adjusting fully, and having a chip on her shoulder due to her unsatisfactory relationship with her mother.

Worf is always cool to a kid - Klingons are cool and Viking-like. But I respect Torres choice more in this real age of cultural atavism that has caused so much violence, where people are so eager to identify with some regressive tribe or another, that they sometimes overlook everything the rational and secular world (or the Federation in this metaphor) has done for them. I love Klingons - they are interesting culture from a distance - but actually living in such a culture would be abusive and unfair. Complaining to the police about being raped in some countries, has resulted in the victim being charged for adultery - there is no oversight in societies where everything is trusted to tradition/honor/propriety, and an abundance of mutually agreed laws and forensic evidence in societies based on rationality and the humane.