Why do people love Wrath of Khan so much?
- Thread starter TalkieToaster
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Long winded dissertation incoming. Sorry about that.
People like Wrath of Khan so much because above and beyond being a great Star Trek movie, it is an amazingly well crafted movie. Unlike most of the Star Trek movies it is deeply layered. Each time you watch it you pick up on new details that support and reinforce its themes and core stories. Every single detail in the movie is there for a reason and propels the story and the themes. From the titles on Khan's bookshelf, to the simplest scenes in Kirk's apartment. Even little details such as the lights on the bridge are carfully crafted to convey the story and to teach you the language of the movie as it goes along. That opening Kobayashi Maru bit? Yeah everything in there is to subtly give you important subtle information for later. The movie is an homage to and is playing with many literary themes. A touch of Shakespeare. More than a touch of Milton and a huge heaping dosage of Melville ("From Hell's Heart I Stab at Thee!"). But at the end of the day it is about aging. Growing Old. Facing up to past actions and regrets. Facing retirement and obsolescence. Of never escaping ones past, but rather facing it and working through it. (The fact that WoK is very much an "end of career" tale in every way is in large part what makes its reworking in Into Darkness as one of the crews first adventures so horrible.) Khan is a movie that can be enjoyed on many levels. As a light attention actioner, or as something deeper exploring humanity. Which makes it possibly the most perfect interpretation of the best of Star Trek on screen. It ranks up there with some of the best of the TOS episodes. Stuff like City on the Edge of Forever, Balance of Terror and The Doomsday Machine. Most Trek stories go for meaning or messaging, with a does of artistic or adventure. WoK written and directed by newcomers swung for "Literary" and hit it out of the park. It was an approach that in particular allowed William Shatner and Ricardo Montoban to let loose and chew the scenery in ways normally reserved for the stage. And it worked beautifully. There was an almost nautical feel to it. Of a duel between two tall sailing ships in the fog. Both limited and intimate, and yet intense. Two Captains in a test of wills. Wrath of Khan manages to transcend the normal bookends of Star Trek storytelling which are "does it tell a morality tale or message story?" and "Does it look and feel really cool?". Instead unlike the others it uses those two points not as the goal, but as the jumping off point, and dives deeper.
Search for Spock is a fine movie, with a good story. It's actually generally underrated as the movies go. But while it had the potential to delve into the depths similarly to WoK, it doesn't quite pull it off as well. It has moments where it almost but not quite gets there. But there is a little too much pointless throwaway stuff in there. Like why did David die? It certainly wasn't in service to the story as it had no real on screen connection to it. It should have, but they never quite pulled it off. Plus they swung a little too far towards a light and comedic tone with the wacky fun Klingon's, led by Taxi's the Reverend Jim and the guy from Night Court. (Although thinking on it... The Bird of Prey! It was owned by Doc Brown! That's why they were able to go back in time and save the whales! They had a Flux Capacitor! It suddenly ALL makes sense!)
LOL a good week to ask that question. The "one with the whales" worked because it flipped the tables over. Instead of doing another Space Opera they took a left turn and did a SciFi Comedy along the lines of Ghostbusters. It was funny, but took itself and it's premise seriously, and deeply leveraged the good and long time chemistry among its cast to sell the whole thing. Hence it was great approachable fun. Even if it makes no sense if you try and think about it.
Larroquette's character may have been a bit dopey, but no way was Kruge a comedy character. What he was, was a Klingon with a (very dry) sense of humour.
I absolutely can agree with the fact that TWOK was constructed well by Meyer, utilizing literary themes woven throughout. If you read his book, there is a lot that he did to pull disparate drafts together and make them work in a deeper tale. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
However, the fact that it is such a well constructed film highlights my frustration with it. Not that it is a well constructed film, but because there are elements that are very jarring, and not as enjoyable. That they are set in such a good film makes them all the more obvious, in my opinion. A quick example would be the bodies in Regula 1 as well as the body horror of the Ceti Eel.
My other frustration is that it has become the gold standard for all Star Trek films, and some episodes. It speaks to the construction of TWOK, but there is little recognition for the different elements that are assembled to make it happen. I don't think TWOK can be done again but they kept trying with FC, Nemesis, ST09 and even STID making use of many elements of the film to try and recapture that success.
Is TWOK well constructed? Absolutely, but that depends change the fact that it is offered now as the gold standard, and is frustrating to see how long its shadow is cast.
I asked no question!
Which parts of it made no sense to you?
It began at "Make calculations for Time Warp" and ended at "Cap'n thar be whales here!". But great fun nonetheless. I kind of categorize ST IV in much the same way as I do the better of the Ferengi episodes. "Don't think on it too much. Just enjoy it."
That doesn't really help me, but okay.
STII opens up with a scene that surprised everyone, establishing new mythos people care about to this day. It had interesting new characters (David, Carol, Saavik), was more energetic, colorful, and had a ton more focus than STTMP. Khan was incredibly underwritten but made up for by a fantastic performance. It had some groundbreaking ideas and graphics (Genesis). It remained my favorite ST film until 2009.
RAMA
RAMA
So you are specifically objecting to the bits that could be described as "horror"? They go a bit further than TOS in what they show, but are surely necessary to establish Khan as one who believes his superiority permits him to do evil things to serve his purposes.
I rarely consider horror elements "necessary" though I can see arguments for both sides.
In my opinion, I do not care for them and it diminishes my enjoyment of the overall film. I will fast-forward past the Ceti-Eel insertion for a lot of reasons. Call it irrational but I can't stand it and it diminishes my enjoyment of a well crafted film.
I'm pretty much in agreement. It was move away from the glacially slow, concept driven futuristic TMP to old style storytelling with personal conflict, combat, character driven movie making. It was familiar but fantastically executed.
I fully understand why TWOK is so popular. Indeed, I am a huge fan, but I prefer TMP...
In many ways I prefer TMP but I do think the characterisation in TWoK scored higher and I confess I absolutely love TWoK's soundtrack. It's probably my favourite from all the movies. I just fits perfectly.
It's a simple story. It has the iconic, salubrious and menacing Ricardo Montalbán (Khan Singh being Star Trek's answer to Francisco Scaramanga; 80-'s villainy being a decade for great villainy).
It deals with self sacrifice and profound loss when two cast iron friends, veterans and comrades who's lives and adventures we've shared over the years, depart in wrenching circumstances. Lots to love with this film.
It deals with self sacrifice and profound loss when two cast iron friends, veterans and comrades who's lives and adventures we've shared over the years, depart in wrenching circumstances. Lots to love with this film.
The Man with the Golden Gun was '74.
Because of the Battle of the Mutara Nebula.
One Very Exciting Battle. Balanced.
One Very Exciting Battle. Balanced.
C
C57D
Guest
Coincidentally, I sat down to watch TWOK last night, but couldn't get into it and so gave up just after Reliant arrives at Tau Ceti. I just couldn't continue to watch a film which hangs on a plot hole big enough to fly the Reliant through!
After exiling a machiavellian, power hungry, manipulative superman and his crew on an uninhabited planet, Kirk doesn't seem to have notified Starfleet and ensured that some sort of warning beacon was placed in orbit. And also ensured that all Starfleet ships have that little piece of information added to their vast databases.
Yeah, great story around Kirk feeling his age and wanting to prove that he could still be a swashbuckling ship of the line commander, and that history repeats itself. But, for me lost in the above mentioned plot hole.
And that it could so easily have been fixed! No Reliant on it's Genesis test sourcing mission stumbling across Khan etc. But rather an independent scoutship and crew (lead by a Harry Mudd or Cyrano Jones a-like) investigating the system (ignoring the warning beacon) sensing Khan's DY100 from orbit and rubbing his hands at the salvage possibility. Scouting team beams down and get Ceti-eeled as the film. Khan and crew take the ship and encounter Reliant in deep space. Send distress call, rescue team beam over, Ceti eels again and Reliant taken.
Discover Genesis data, rendezvous with Enterprise...................etc etc.
Plot hole closed!
After exiling a machiavellian, power hungry, manipulative superman and his crew on an uninhabited planet, Kirk doesn't seem to have notified Starfleet and ensured that some sort of warning beacon was placed in orbit. And also ensured that all Starfleet ships have that little piece of information added to their vast databases.
Yeah, great story around Kirk feeling his age and wanting to prove that he could still be a swashbuckling ship of the line commander, and that history repeats itself. But, for me lost in the above mentioned plot hole.
And that it could so easily have been fixed! No Reliant on it's Genesis test sourcing mission stumbling across Khan etc. But rather an independent scoutship and crew (lead by a Harry Mudd or Cyrano Jones a-like) investigating the system (ignoring the warning beacon) sensing Khan's DY100 from orbit and rubbing his hands at the salvage possibility. Scouting team beams down and get Ceti-eeled as the film. Khan and crew take the ship and encounter Reliant in deep space. Send distress call, rescue team beam over, Ceti eels again and Reliant taken.
Discover Genesis data, rendezvous with Enterprise...................etc etc.
Plot hole closed!
ST: TWoK is quite simply operatic ! The themes of middle age, loss and revenge are extremely poignant. The performances from the regular cast really take these characters to places that really make you feel it, in a way that possibly had never happened before.
And the icing on the cake and the thing that gives the entire film it's unique mood is James Horner's score. Quite simply the best incidental music score in all film. Majestic.
And the icing on the cake and the thing that gives the entire film it's unique mood is James Horner's score. Quite simply the best incidental music score in all film. Majestic.
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