• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

Status
Not open for further replies.
Peters briefly worked for CBS. He barters CBS props. They know him well. They have a dog in this fight. And I believe the Vegas meeting was CBS-only.
Do we have proof of that? I know I've read Alec's comments that he was once the "CBS archivist" but considering he exaggerates and twists the truth for his own benefit, is this even true? I would have to see a paycheck stub. And if he once did work for them, why not any more?
 
Property law is not at all comparable to copyright law.

The "adverse possession" you describe could-- if applicable-- support Axanar's claim of fair use: if Paramount and CBS failed to stop previous films, they've given up their right to stop Axanar by default, under your comparison.

Fortunately, that's not how copyright works. It's been firmly and repeatedly established that copyrights can be selectively enforced at the owner's whim. Inaction against one or even many does not negate their rights, or inhibit their ability to pursue action against another.
 
IF you admit that CBS/Paramount "allowed" previous fan films then CBS/Paramount would have to show how Axanar is doing something different than the endeavors they've allowed in the past.

This'd had been brought up a few times - it's important to remember that they don't have to show this, legally. Trademarks must be defended or you lose them (escalator and yo-yo were trademarks once), copyright doesn't. I can let you copy everything and someone else copy nothing and be perfectly within my rights. That's sort of the essence of copyright really, it's your creation so it's up to you what's done with it.

Edit: ninja'd
 
Do we have proof of that? I know I've read Alec's comments that he was once the "CBS archivist" but considering he exaggerates and twists the truth for his own benefit, is this even true? I would have to see a paycheck stub. And if he once did work for them, why not any more?

Yes this is true, trust Adam (search4) he knows.
 
This'd had been brought up a few times - it's important to remember that they don't have to show this, legally. Trademarks must be defended or you lose them (escalator and yo-yo were trademarks once), copyright doesn't. I can let you copy everything and someone else copy nothing and be perfectly within my rights. That's sort of the essence of copyright really, it's your creation so it's up to you what's done with it.

Edit: ninja'd

THIS
 
Do we have proof of that? I know I've read Alec's comments that he was once the "CBS archivist" but considering he exaggerates and twists the truth for his own benefit, is this even true? I would have to see a paycheck stub. And if he once did work for them, why not any more?

-- I posted upstream info about how he was "a" CBS Archivist for a travelling exhibition, perhaps different from "the" archivist: http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/cbs-paramount-sues-to-stop-axanar.278077/page-235#post-11429177 . That exhibit was shut down and I think he eventually sold the props, and the "archivist" job could have been storing and inventorying the props in preparation for sale. But he could have been doing more I suppose. I just haven't seen really specific info about it from him.

-- That he has sold Trek props of course there's no doubt. Whether CBS or Paramount owned the props, or who in which corporations he interacted with for these sales, I couldn't personally say.

-- Re meeting CBS last August, AP has made various postings I recall vaguely about the CBS meeting, and there has been quite a bit made of CBS being the ones coming out after the meeting with statements about protecting Trek IP. In one quote I transcribed here from a podcast AP also said they met with CBS:

"You know, listen, I met with the people at CBS two weeks ago, and they said, look, they're not talking to us".
http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/cbs-paramount-sues-to-stop-axanar.278077/page-388#post-11458044

I *highly* recommend people go back and read this transcript, for reasons that will immediately become apparent. :rolleyes::guffaw::whistle:
 
Property law is not at all comparable to copyright law.

The "adverse possession" you describe could-- if applicable-- support Axanar's claim of fair use: if Paramount and CBS failed to stop previous films, they've given up their right to stop Axanar by default, under your comparison.

Fortunately, that's not how copyright works. It's been firmly and repeatedly established that copyrights can be selectively enforced at the owner's whim. Inaction against one or even many does not negate their rights, or inhibit their ability to pursue action against another.

@Albinator - an agreement and a slight disagreement.

First, the agreement - copyright does not have to be policed in the same way a trademark does, and can be "selectively enforced at the owner's whim". All I said on this earlier is that enforcing it against no one could "bolster an argument" that the owner has knowingly and intentionally committed the work to the public domain. It wouldn't be a great argument except under really specific facts - but an argument nonetheless (and when you are Axanar, you'll take any argument you can get).

The disagreement - I don't think "adverse possession" - even if literally applicable to copyright (which it isn't) - would ever have a bearing on a fair use defense whatsoever (nor would any other species of "but you let someone else use it so I can too" or "you didn't police your rights"). "Fair use" is an affirmative defense, which means that, before the defendant can allege fair use, he has to concede that his actions infringe copyright. (An affirmative defense literally is a "yes, but" defense - "yes, I infringed copyright, but [here's my excuse why I shouldn't have liability for it.]") Fair use is predicated on making uses of the copyrighted work that, though technically infringing, the law will give a "pass" on - usually because the infringing activity has some socially-redeeming benefit (including furthering the First Amendment right to free speech/freedom of the press). This is why use of copyrighted materials for purposes of teaching, criticism, commentary, parody, etc. are specifically cited as one of the non-exclusive fair use factors in the Copyright Act and case law. Though there are also other factors that play into a fair use inquiry, whether the owner adequately policed his copyrights has no bearing on a fair use analysis under any case law I have ever read.

Hope I didn't seem pedantic - you obviously have some knowledge of this, and I wasn't trying to "school ya" on stuff you may already know. Just clearing up what I thought might lead to some confusion here.

:)
Mike
 
This'd had been brought up a few times - it's important to remember that they don't have to show this, legally. Trademarks must be defended or you lose them (escalator and yo-yo were trademarks once), copyright doesn't. I can let you copy everything and someone else copy nothing and be perfectly within my rights. That's sort of the essence of copyright really, it's your creation so it's up to you what's done with it.

Edit: ninja'd
I made my point badly. I was saying that even if those arguments went forth, Axanar is far beyond other fan films. So even if one would say that "Waiver" or "Adverse possession" or "Other fan films did it" defense came into play it's already a moot point because of all the things Axanar has done that crossed the line other fan films don't cross.
 
All I said on this earlier is that enforcing it against no one could "bolster an argument" that the owner has knowingly and intentionally committed the work to the public domain.

I don't see how it could bolster ANY argument, considering how firmly the rules governing copyright have been established and upheld.

And think about the insanely scary consequences altering that precedent would have if every copyright holder had to defend every instance of infringement or risk loss to public domain. First off the bat, there's no way Disney wouldn't help Paramount and force the law to stay as it is. There's too much to protect.
 
-- I posted upstream info about how he was "a" CBS Archivist for a travelling exhibition, perhaps different from "the" archivist: http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/cbs-paramount-sues-to-stop-axanar.278077/page-235#post-11429177 . That exhibit was shut down and I think he eventually sold the props, and the "archivist" job could have been storing and inventorying the props in preparation for sale. But he could have been doing more I suppose. I just haven't seen really specific info about it from him.

-- That he has sold Trek props of course there's no doubt. Whether CBS or Paramount owned the props, or who in which corporations he interacted with for these sales, I couldn't personally say.

-- Re meeting CBS last August, AP has made various postings I recall vaguely about the CBS meeting, and there has been quite a bit made of CBS being the ones coming out after the meeting with statements about protecting Trek IP. In one quote I transcribed here from a podcast AP also said they met with CBS:

"You know, listen, I met with the people at CBS two weeks ago, and they said, look, they're not talking to us".
http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/cbs-paramount-sues-to-stop-axanar.278077/page-388#post-11458044

I *highly* recommend people go back and read this transcript, for reasons that will immediately become apparent. :rolleyes::guffaw::whistle:
So noted. Thanks for reminding me about that podcast. I'll be adding to AxaMonitor.
 
As luck would have it, a friend of mine happens to be in the area of the Axanar studios and is going to have a pop over and see whats going on... Nothing wrong with it, and the Axanar people can't stop him
 
That’s exactly my view, jespah, thank you.

If we are going strictly on copyright infringement grounds - i.e., which fan production copied more copyrightable subject matter owned by C/P - then Axanar actually lags a bit behind other productions such as Star Trek Continues, which appropriates wholesale characters, settings, designs, graphic works (such as costume designs) and other copyrightable elements. In fact, if you took a screenshot from a Star Trek Continues episode - say, a scene in a briefing room, sickbay or bridge, it would likely look virtually identical to a screenshot from TOS other than the actors’ faces being different. Certainly much closer, when viewed in the aggregate, to the copyrightable subject matter protected by copyright in TOS than Axanar.

But STC is not sued, while Axanar is. I think that can be chalked up squarely to all of the “off-screen”/”on the side” activities of the Axanar team that put them on a direct collision course with C/P and, IMHO, made C/P feel that their hand had been forced. And not just “forced” from a public relations standpoint - but “forced” in the sense of Axanar willfully colliding with C/P’s other legal rights that, to my knowledge, STC and other films continue to respect - such as using copyrightable subject matter to market ancillary products (the coffee). Such as engaging in unfair competition by free-riding on C/P’s intellectual property and then openly touting “Axanar’s Star Trek product” as being superior to “C/P’s Star Trek product”. Such as, if allegations are to be believed, free-riding on C/P’s intellectual property as a springboard for a competing film production facility.

This is, again, my “yard” metaphor. Axanar had the same chance STC has to play nicely and respectfully in someone else’s yard and then, later, to leave and go back home when asked. They did not do either of those things.

Mike
Mike, the "playing in the yard" analogy strikes me as useful, but only so far as it goes, since copyright and property law are very different from one another. It's a good analogy for helping laypeople understand the concept that taking no action against infringers doesn't equal abandonment of copyright.

An important distinction in copyright law, however, is that abandonment must be an affirmative act — the copyright holder must make an explicit declaration of his or her abandonment to the public domain; it doesn't just "happen."

"It is well settled that rights gained under the Copyright Act may be abandoned. But abandonment of a right must be manifested by some overt act indicating an intention to abandon that right. Abandonment is still possible, but ... based on the owner's conduct. ... In copyright, waiver or abandonment of copyright occurs only if there is an intent by the copyright proprietor to surrender rights in his work." — The Librarian's Legal Companion for Licensing Information Resources and Services. [emphasis mine]

Now it's easier to understand why CBS takes the "blind eye" approach to fan films. Any overt act it makes toward acknowledging them could be construed as creating some kind of license relationship.

We have an article on Fan Films and Infringement on AxaMonitor that discusses why, despite their tacit tolerance for such productions, it's highly unlikely the studios will ever issue a set of rules for fan films.
 
Last edited:
And think about the insanely scary consequences altering that precedent would have if every copyright holder had to defend every instance of infringement or risk loss to public domain.

@Albinator - Ah, well, maybe that's where we are missing each other. I was talking about a situation where the owner enforced their copyright "against no one" - meaning they let every single person in the world use it without restriction. They didn't go after anyone ever. If the copyright owner let every single person in the world use the work without restriction, that is functionally the same as putting the work in the public domain, so (the argument would go) that must have been the intent of the owner.

You are instead referencing a different situation - where failure to "defend every instance of infringement" could lead to some argument of "public domain". Very different, and I agree that there is no argument of public domain whatsoever if the copyright owner sues even one out of a thousand defendants. Public domain requires some demonstration of affirmative intent to relinquish all of your copyright rights. Even one lawsuit to enforce your rights negates that intent.

Best,
M
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top