Did Kylo Ren ... ? (spoilers)

[Locutus of Bored]

Thank you for pointing this out. I mentioned it earlier, but it fell upon blind eyes.

You're a lone voice in the wilderness again, WFZ. No one will accept your incontrovertible truth, just like with the size of the Enterprise. Maybe we should debate the length of Kylo Ren's lightsaber instead?

Everyone is well aware that it's implied in the film that Han thinks going out onto the bridge is almost guaranteed to fail and is most likely a suicide mission (see excerpt from my prior post below). No one has any problem with Mr. Don't Tell Me The Odds knowingly putting his life on the line to save his son. What they dispute and find out of character is Han intentionally igniting the blade and stabbing himself once there. Han will risk death, but not for nothing, and intentionally killing himself on the bridge gains nothing.

If Han's dead, Ben isn't taken away from the corrupting influence of Snoke and the Dark Side, he isn't actually alleviated of guilt since he still provoked the confrontation, and he doesn't get a ride from Chewie, Rey, and Finn to get off the planet they're about to blow up. It makes no sense for Han to kill himself.

That's not even taking into account the fact that Han is clearly shocked by Ben stabbing him. He thought he was actually making a breakthrough for a second before Ben finally killed him. If he knew what was coming he wouldn't have this "Zoinks, Shaggy!" look on his face:

I agree that Han thought convincing Kylo was a longshot and that he was probably going to die in the attempt. That was evident by his hesitation to go onto the bridge and the grim look he gave as he convinced himself to go forward, risking his life to in a desperate attempt to save his son.

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/did-kylo-ren-spoilers.278966/page-2#post-11461792

 

[WarpFactorZ]

You're a lone voice in the wilderness again, WFZ. No one will accept your incontrovertible truth,

I like how you use your position as moderator to insult me personally (board violation) and will probably get away with it. Classy, as always.

That's not even taking into account the fact that Han is clearly shocked by Ben stabbing him.

If you stabbed yourself through the gut, even on purpose, I'm sure you would probably look a bit shocked. But anyway, you win, Herbert. You've shut down a free discussion as usual.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I like how you use your position as moderator to insult me personally (board violation)

He did not do that.

And you didn't answer his question: what reason would Han possibly have, to kill himself? So let me answer it for you: None.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

And you didn't answer his question: what reason would Han possibly have, to kill himself?

It was answered in the OP.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I like how you use your position as moderator to insult me personally (board violation) and will probably get away with it. Classy, as always.

I'm not a moderator in this forum, and I didn't threaten you with any mod action, so no. Also, I was mocking your rhetoric about how anyone who disagrees with you is "blind," which is insulting itself.

If you stabbed yourself through the gut, even on purpose, I'm sure you would probably look a bit shocked. But anyway, you win, Herbert. You've shut down a free discussion as usual.

Shocked as in surprised by what happened, not shocked by the pain. It's obvious that Han wasn't expecting to be stabbed at that point because he thought he had been making a breakthrough.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Shocked as in surprised by what happened, not shocked by the pain.

Nonsense. The body is programmed to be unconsciously shocked by pain. It's a survival mechanism. Furthermore, if you stab yourself and suddenly realize it hurts a fuck lot more than you thought it would, you're most definitely going to look SHOCKED, whether or not you meant to do it.

 

[Set Harth]

Why would he expect it to not hurt?

 

[Saul]

I like how you use your position as moderator to insult me personally (board violation) and will probably get away with it. Classy, as always.

It's not an insult nor is it using mod powers to insult. Acting like a dick is not an insult.

If you stabbed yourself through the gut, even on purpose, I'm sure you would probably look a bit shocked.

I'd be shocked wondering "why the hell did I stab myself in the gut for, damn this really does hurt". It's like when people put their hand in a blender when it's still plugged in.

 

[JD]

I wouldn't put it past Han to sacrifice himself for his son, but I thought it was very clear that wasn't what happened here. Like someone up thread said, it was pretty clear that Han was not expecting to be stabbed. He probably did know that he might die once he went to confront Ben, but he didn't plan on it happening.

^I'd rather seem him redeemed by having a certain Wookie pull the little fecker's arms out of their sockets.

Speaking of; one thing about that scene I do find interesting is Chewie's reaction. Not so much that he gets pissed and takes a shot (because: duh) but that he *didn't* get a kill shot. Earlier on the movie made a point of showing off just how accurate and lethal his bowcaster is at range and yet the best he could manage is a glancing hit?

On the one hand of course, I know, if he killed Kylo right then and there then we don't have as much to do in episodes 8 & 9. It's also possible to argue that maybe he was too pissed off to aim straight, it was only a hasty snap-shot or that Kylo was a little out of range (the bridge was pretty far) or that Kylo's force ability allowed him to dodge the shot, or rather move enough that it wasn't a lethal, centre of mass hit.

But still, I can't help but wonder if there's something else going on here. If I were to hazard a guess, I might suggest that perhaps the way Wookie honour works, he *can't* kill a family member of someone he owes a life debt to. Even if said family member just murdered said person in cold blood. He can however give him an nice painful abdominal wound with maybe even a broken rib or three. Which would seem about right for the Wookie equivalent of a flick 'round the earhole.

Then there was that online fan comic from last month, that showed Chewie thinking back on how he had basically been Ben/Ren's uncle, played with him as a kid, watched him grow up, etc., so he just couldn't bring himself to take the kill shot.

Here's the link:
http://www.tor.com/2016/01/12/chewbacca-and-kylo-ren-past-is-explored-in-comic-by-tyson-murphy/

Kor

I think this idea does make sense. I could see Chewie having trouble killing the son of his best friend, even after he had killed his father. Chewie and Ben had to have been pretty close while he was growing up, and even after what he did, those memories would still have to have a pretty big effect on Chewie.

 

[Reverend]

I feel it's only fair that I mention that some of the tie-in media has mentioned that after the Alliance liberated Kashyyyk he basically went home and reconnected with his family. He's only been back with Han since that whole mess with Ben drove him to go back to his old habits.
The logic there being that since Wookies are long lived (Chewie was already 200 around the time of the first movie and only just middle aged) taking a decade out to support/enable a grieving friend isn't that big a deal.

So while it's certainly possible Ben grew up with Chewie around occasionally, I wouldn't bank on him being the live-in uncle he was for the Solo kids in the old EU.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

If you wanted to see the movie unspoiled you had more than enough time, you have only yourself to blame because it is unreasonable to expect to not run into spoilers about the most successful movie of the year after seven weeks.
Being spoiled becomes inevitable at some point, if it hadn't happened here you could have overheard people talking about it at the table next to yours in a restaurant for example, it happens.

Takeru, please try and be sympathetic, will you, please? Being a caregiver takes a lot of orchestration.

 

[JD]

I feel it's only fair that I mention that some of the tie-in media has mentioned that after the Alliance liberated Kashyyyk he basically went home and reconnected with his family. He's only been back with Han since that whole mess with Ben drove him to go back to his old habits.
The logic there being that since Wookies are long lived (Chewie was already 200 around the time of the first movie and only just middle aged) taking a decade out to support/enable a grieving friend isn't that big a deal.

So while it's certainly possible Ben grew up with Chewie around occasionally, I wouldn't bank on him being the live-in uncle he was for the Solo kids in the old EU.

Where does the Chewie info come from? I thought I had caught most of the info that had been revealed looking around on the internet, but I missed that bit.

 

[Ithekro]

The very first Making of Star Wars specials in 1977. I think both George Lucas and Harrison Ford mention it when talking about Chewbacca.

 

[Reverend]

Where does the Chewie info come from? I thought I had caught most of the info that had been revealed looking around on the internet, but I missed that bit.

It was in the new visual dictionary, which was written by Pablo Hidalgo, who's part of the Lucasfilm Story Group so it should be fairly legit. One assumes that in developing the new movies the story group have at least roughed out a general sketch of what key characters were upto between RotJ & TFA.

 

[JD]

I read through that cover to cover, so I guess I must have forgotten about that.