Why do people love Wrath of Khan so much?

[jaime]

Glad its not just me. I do wonder how trek would have worked out if it had stuck with that Alien(s) vibe. I don't think I would have liked it as much, much as I like Alien films for different reasons. Its a big influence on the inception of TNG as well, but sort of faded until briefly rearing its head one last time for first contact.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Glad its not just me. I do wonder how trek would have worked out if it had stuck with that Alien(s) vibe. I don't think I would have liked it as much, much as I like Alien films for different reasons. Its a big influence on the inception of TNG as well, but sort of faded until briefly rearing its head one last time for first contact.

yeh that's an interesting point - theres elements in III and also TMP (Goldsmith/Horner doing movies I and II for one) and TNG the Vasquez like Yar, and of course Conspiracy and yes FC was almost an 'Aliens' remake in many ways

another thing about TWOK uniqueness in the series is it has no bumpy headed humanoid aliens. just highly advanced astronauts (one of whom has alien blood) vs highly advanced genetically engineered supermen from centuries ago. so in a way its its a more plausible SF film in terms of imagining the future (ok there maybe Klingon type aliens with similar cultures to ours out there, but its probably more likely theres alien things we cant begin to imagine - like Ceti Eels and facehuggers/xenomorphs, while we as a species continue to fight each other over our differences and the need to rule (only instead of race it could be genetically created races like Khan)

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

TWOK had great pacing, great character development, great emotional core, great music, great villain. Just a great Star Trek movie.

 

[jaime]

TWOK had great pacing, great character development, great emotional core, great music, great villain. Just a great Star Trek movie.

TWOK had great pacing, great character development, great emotional core, great music, great villain. Just a great Star Trek movie.

Its great 80s sf movie. I personally think it lacks in the trek department. Its also a shame half romulan kirstie saavik is never properly dealt with in later films, but then Nimoy decided to stay.

 

[suarezguy]

Part of it is low-ish expectations after TMP but also that with all the classic and TNG films that came later it still seems by far the boldest, having Kirk's mistakes from the past catch up with him, giving him a really great villain, making Kirk flawed but still pretty awesome, acknowledging that new, younger characters are coming in and having Khan's revenge almost succeed, the climax believably having to involve real sacrifice. Things like the eels also make it stand out as unusually intense and more successful for that.

Of the other films most feel pretty small, unsurprising, TUC and FC are the only other ones that felt really ambitious and both, especially their endings, still feel a little standard.

 

[fireproof78]

Part of it is low-ish expectations after TMP but also that with all the classic and TNG films that came later it still seems by far the boldest, having Kirk's mistakes from the past catch up with him, giving him a really great villain, making Kirk flawed but still pretty awesome, acknowledging that new, younger characters are coming in and having Khan's revenge almost succeed, the climax believably having to involve real sacrifice. Things like the eels also make it stand out as unusually intense and more successful for that.

Of the other films most feel pretty small, unsurprising, TUC and FC are the only other ones that felt really ambitious and both, especially their endings, still feel a little standard.

I would still take the ending of TUC over most of the other films. Even TWOK, to a certain degree, though I can appreciate the ending being in line with the theme and story of the film. But, taking TWOK as a stand alone film the ending is definitely out of place within the larger Star Trek work.

 

[jaime]

I would still take the ending of TUC over most of the other films. Even TWOK, to a certain degree, though I can appreciate the ending being in line with the theme and story of the film. But, taking TWOK as a stand alone film the ending is definitely out of place within the larger Star Trek work.

It's one of the things that rankles about its echo at the end of nemesis. All those years of hope and we end on a bloody funeral.

 

[suarezguy]

I think the TWoK ending is pretty consistent with Trek as a whole, a common theme is that the characters do at times have to make sacrifices (all the way back to Kirk killing Mitchell) and while the others will try hard, even risking themselves, to save their friends sometimes a scenario is no-win unless someone makes an ultimate sacrifice.

 

[trynda1701]

It's interesting to wonder what all our perceptions on TWoK would be today if TMP hadn't been made and it had been the first movie instead?

After watching TMP myself, I loved the opening scene at V'ger, and felt the movie slowed right down after that. And, of course, it's also a rehash of "The Changeling" from TOS. I think the music score carries that film!

So TWoK, with much faster pacing, and the Big Three getting to be themselves, seemed like a breath of fresh air. Even with all the plot holes mentioned, I like TWoK so much that I feel the ABC / Directors Cut takes away from the movie. The additional scenes just seemed forced into the original pacing.

So, for me, it's my favorite Trek movie on Monday, Wednesday and Friday ("The Undiscovered Country" is favorite Tuesday and Thursday, and "First Contact" gets the weekend!).

Mark

 

[Unicron]

I agree with a lot of the points others have mentioned. TWOK certainly isn't perfect, it has some annoying continuity and plot problems, but it also has some great character development, a good sense of pacing and use of SFX, and I think James Horner did an excellent score.

 

[Greg Cox]

I think the TWoK ending is pretty consistent with Trek as a whole, a common theme is that the characters do at times have to make sacrifices (all the way back to Kirk killing Mitchell) and while the others will try hard, even risking themselves, to save their friends sometimes a scenario is no-win unless someone makes an ultimate sacrifice.

Exactly. Many of the classic Trek episodes end on tragic or downbeat notes: See also "The Cage," "Mantrap," "Charlie X," "The Conscience of the King," "The Ultimate Computer," and, er, a little something called "City on the Edge of Forever." Nobody ever said that STAR TREK stories have to have happy endings . . ..

I sometimes wonder, if "City" aired today, would people object that it wasn't hopeful or inspirational enough--because Kirk didn't find a way to save the timeline and Edith Keeler?

 

[eyeresist]

Glad its not just me. I do wonder how trek would have worked out if it had stuck with that Alien(s) vibe. I don't think I would have liked it as much, much as I like Alien films for different reasons. Its a big influence on the inception of TNG as well, but sort of faded until briefly rearing its head one last time for first contact.

If Ridley Scott had directed it, TWOK would certainly have looked more cinematic. As it is, some bits of TWOK are a bit disappointing in terms of scale.

TWOK has some awesome parts, but some bits are less awesome. Any scene where we are stuck with Carol and David is a drag, and their space station has a lame 70s feel. When Khan is on the Reliant, the bridge looks unimpressive. And unlike modern movies, it feels like forever before the story really gets moving.

OTOH, there is Khan, "Khaaan!", and everything from the nebula battle onward.

 

[Trekkin]

Can't really add anything to what anyone else has said. It just gets me on the feels.

And it has brain-squeezing eels eating their way through Chekov's head.

 

[DeepSouthTrekFan]

From the perspective of a fan since 1972, TWOK was a welcome return to the more adventurous Trek that the first film (which I love) sorely lacked. Plus we got spaceship battles, and Ricardo Montalban' Khan at his scenery-chewing best!

 

[DarKush]

Why I like TWOK so much:
-Great villain in Khan Noonien Singh. No other Trek movie villain was as charismatic even though Chang and the Borg Queen came close. Might throw Kruge in there too.
-Presenting Kirk struggling with middle age and the shadow of mortality; it was interesting place, an organic place, to have him in that film. Kirk also dealing with Dr. Marcus and the consequences of his actions or inaction as a father was concerned.
-Tense, suspenseful battles, with minimal yet important action.
-Spock's sacrifice and death. It was just very emotional.

Really for all the TOS films compared to the TNG films they allowed the characters to grow and consistently. Perhaps they couldn't help it since the TOS characters were so much older by the time they started the films, but I'm glad they did anyway. It added gravitas to their interactions and a kind of gravity to their adventures.

 

[RoJoHen]

Oddly enough, given the big theme in the movie (and in some of the other TOS films as well) of AGING, I find that I appreciate it the older I get. I always liked it, but I didn't understand why people thought it was the best movie EVAR!

Now I do. The older I get, the more I can relate to what the characters are going through.

 

[gottacook]

I just listened to TWOK (on listentoamovie.com) while getting some work done, and as usual it transported me back to the theatre on opening day in 1982. Simply put, one reason for TWOK's durability is the original audience response and how it's propagated in the years since.

One noteworthy change made for this movie (and retained thereafter) was that now you could move and even converse while in the act of beaming up. This speaks to the attention given to improved pacing versus TMP: Why else introduce such a change?

 

[jaime]

I just listened to TWOK (on listentoamovie.com) while getting some work done, and as usual it transported me back to the theatre on opening day in 1982. Simply put, one reason for TWOK's durability is the original audience response and how it's propagated in the years since.

One noteworthy change made for this movie (and retained thereafter) was that now you could move and even converse while in the act of beaming up. This speaks to the attention given to improved pacing versus TMP: Why else introduce such a change?

To show off improved special effects sequences and allow for amusing speech cut offs.

 

[gottacook]

But the talking-while-transporting (at least in TWOK) took me several viewings to catch every word correctly. It was a tradeoff between pacing and comprehensibility. I sort of wish they hadn't introduced it. Think of the walking-while-beaming sequence in TVH: Is Spock supposed to have kept walking at that same pace off the edge of the transporter pad in the Klingon ship and turned an ankle?

 

[jaime]

But the talking-while-transporting (at least in TWOK) took me several viewings to catch every word correctly. It was a tradeoff between pacing and comprehensibility. I sort of wish they hadn't introduced it. Think of the walking-while-beaming sequence in TVH: Is Spock supposed to have kept walking at that same pace off the edge of the transporter pad in the Klingon ship and turned an ankle?

Now you have a literal pacing concern.

I actually don't like it. It's there to allow for dramatically or amusingly cut off dialogue, and makes little sense in the overall quasi scientific explanation given elsewhere for transporters.