1 or 2 things I have not understood about Endgame

[konitzlee]

Howdy there,

So me and my wife have just finished watching Voyager. In Endgame, Voyager successfully destroys the hub with the aid of older Janeway, and manages to go back to earth.

First question: did they just destroy one Borg hub and one single queen, or were the Borg completely destroyed? In other words, is the Queen Borg unique and irreplaceable or can she be replaced?

Second question: at a certain moment Voyager is inside the transwarp conducts, and they have a sphere tailing them. They realize they wouldn't make it to the Alpha quadrant in time, and the only safe way out of there would be to "take a turn" and exit again in the delta quadrant. Then the episode cuts and goes back to earth. Should we assume that voyager was abducted inside the sphere and then managed to let the sphere explode from within? I'm a bit confused..

Thanks all!!

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Welcome to the board.

1) I assume there is just one Queen, although if the BORG infrastructure exists, she can be "recreated". For example, Picard and Data "killed her" originally in First Contact and she came back in Voyager. The actresses were different initially, but the Queen in Endgame WAS the Queen in First Contact, so I assume the Queens were/are one and the same.

The BORG infrastructure has been devastated not just by neutralizing the BORG hub, but by poisoning the network when the Queen assimilated the Admiral.

ADMIRAL: Must be something you assimilated.
QUEEN: What have you done?
ADMIRAL: I thought we didn't need words to understand each other.
QUEEN: You've infected us with an neurolytic pathogen.
ADMIRAL: Just enough to bring chaos to order.



2) Voyager wasn't "abducted" so much as they placed themselves within the sphere and from inside the sphere they were able to blow up the BORG vessel.

Think of it like how the Millennium Falcon flew into the Death Star to blow it up, but Voyager did it first to hide, (I guess we can use another Star Wars analogy) like when the Millennium Falcon charged the Imperial Cruiser's bridge to ram it and ended up "disappearing" by hiding on the back side of their bridge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHHD-UPru8s

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHHD-UPru8s[/yt]

See the Sphere open a conduit into itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvqme6qYtME

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvqme6qYtME[/yt]


As always, YMMV.



Those are the only questions you have after Endgame?

 

[wulfio]

Another question you could ask is, did voyager end on the creation of a grandfather paradox?

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

I think the implication of the finale from the writers and producers was that Voyager and her crew have dealt the Borg a crippling blow - not just the Queen, a transwarp hub, but also the unicomplex have been destroyed. Considering the unicomplex's appearance in Dark Frontier, Unimatrix Zero, and Endgame, it's implied to be the heart of Borg territory. At the same time, though, the unicomplex is a location, there are five other hubs out there, and the Queen has been killed before.

I get the impression that the writers wanted a sort of 'housecleaning' element for Endgame, as the foreseeable end of 24th century Trek, on TV at least. They wanted it to look like the Borg had been seriously crippled, if not dealt with once and for all, just in case they never came back to them. There's room to interpret, since they never say one way or the other 'the Borg are dead and done with,' but they wanted a significant blow, to make it at least appear that the Borg are no longer a threat, the lingering boogeyman.

 

[LeadHead]

Seven states that the transwarp network has been obliterated, essentially eliminating the Borg's transportation infrastructure. Combine that with destroying the unicomplex and the queen, it was a significant blow to the collective. The pathogen was likely containable, since the Borg on the sphere were able to pursue Voyager. If it had been a collective wide infection, the sphere likely would have been disabled or otherwise unable to go after our heroes.

I for one, always like that the video game Elite Force 2, adds extra content to the ending. Sending the Hazard team into the cube to disable its systems while Voyager is inside.

To me, it helps solve 2 things:

1. If Voyager is within the sphere, it should be at least starting to be assimilated/boarded.

2. Making the amount of time spent within the transwarp conduit more reasonable. I know transwarp is supposed to be super ludicrous fast, but it shouldn't be Q-snaps-his-fingers-fast.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It took me 8 years to understand that Berman wanted us to think that the Borg were completely murdered and dead and not coming back.

A complete unreversable human victory.

 

[Chen]

The repercussions of all this are studied in several of the relaunch novels - Star Trek Destiny in particular covers the Borg's attitude to the Federation post-Endgame.

Avoid "Resistance" like the plague - it will probably make you angry.

 

[Mage]

1: The Queen is not limited to one body. She was, as is later established, killed when the cube over Earth was destroyed in 2366, during the events of Best Of Both Worlds. She told Picard that he think in such 3 dimensional ways. I believe that the Queen we see is a physical manifestation of a collective self, if that makes sense. If a body is destroyed, it doesn't matter. The actual being can just be uploaded to a new body, if needed. Hell, when we first meet the Queen, she isn't even a body yet, just a voice. An entity. There is chaos in order if that program is attacked/destroyed. But there are failsaves.

And I don't think destroying the Hub destroyed the entire infrastructure. There were four of them in the galaxy. It was though, I believe, the Hub linking directly to the AQ. Taking that down was a severe blow. But the Borg are massive, so taking down one Hub out of four will not take them down completely.

In TrekLit, Janeway's decision actually prompted the Borg to begin a massive invasion of the AQ, realizing that the Federation was to big to simply assimilate and take over. Better to completely annihilate and be rid of them. It's a long and great story I won't spoil here, but you can read more in novels like the Destiny trilogy about the how and why.

2: The question of the Sphere is basicly Janeway allowing the Sphere to swallow up Voyager and piggyback a ride. It was a bit odd, since the Sphere was in the same collapsing corrider as Voyager, so I don't really see the reasoning, except for an overly dramatic shot of Voyager coming home in a fiery explosion, because that's how Starfleet heroes come home; in a big boom.

 

[Guy Gardener]

1. Behind the scenes (that you can read on Memory Alpha) says that Both actresses where playing the same Queen in the same body, even though I can balloon twist some shit with time lines to explain everything to explain two queens.

We can't be certain that the Queen was physically there, and even if she was, the Borg sent ships (New ships were speedily built from the wreckage of the destroyed Federation fleet.) back to the DQ after the Battle Wolf 359 (Voy: Unity.), so she could have gone home bored by how well things were going, and assuming that her boyfriend had everything in hand.

The script in Endgame says that there are 6 hubs in this Galaxy. Other than grand Central station, destroying any one subway stop in New York would not stop all the Trains. Maybe the Borg lost access to one sixth of the galaxy, or maybe they have redundancies and work arounds, which is the definition of Borg technology that a Cube can seem to still be as completely formidable with 95 percent of it's faculties annihilated as it does at full power. Actually if the transwarp radio network went down with their travel system, that would slow and stymie the infection rate and even create safe spots or as a best case scenario firewalled the virus off maybe only ten feet away from the origin point of infection.

2. Did they infect that Sphere with the Virus? The act of enveloping Voyager to cut it up for parts, if Voyager itself was riddled with Borg AIDS, the moment the Sphere's subspace radio handshake felt up Voyager, it was terminally infected to death, and actually goosing her with docking clamps, palpable physical contact, that'll surely speed up the infection if transmission pathways still exist.

 

[Tracy Trek]

At the time when I first watched it, I wondered if perhaps they had managed to get behind the sphere somehow. Because Janeway says adjust course, not allow ourselves to be tractored, right? But then it seems obvious when Tuvok fires the torpedo that they must be inside. If this were real, they run the risk of bringing the Borg right to Earth's doorstep again. And it had already been established that just one cube or sphere could destroy multiple ships without breaking a sweat (figuratively speaking).

Also didn't the Queen say they had assimilated the armor technology. Wouldn't that mean (unless all Borg were destroyed everywhere) that it would make it even harder to fight them?

I think it would have been a better idea to have had the final season be them finally figuring out how to make the slipstream or the transwarp work. That way you wouldn't be playing fast and loose with the timeline. You could have it span the whole season and show how they had to scrounge for materials or trade with species that might not make things easy for them. Or make it a series of little jumps and maybe have to repair stuff because of the stresses on the ship. I've actually read a fanfic that explores these concepts. And some of the writers of it have submitted (and at least one I know of has been published) stories to the Strange New Worlds writing contest.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Having looked at Endgame, the only certainties I had, were 1) Captain Janeway and her crew returned finally on Earth. OUF! ; 2) Captain Janeway would obtain a promotion to have returned the vessel / its crew safe and sound AND for the accomplished work while the Voyager was lost in Quadrant Alpha (diplomatic agreements, scientific researches, etc...) ; 3) Tuvok's disease will be checked in due course and he will find all his mental capacities ; 4) Miral, Paris/Torres child will grow up on Earth and not, in an unknown and hostile environment.

As for the "express" courtship between Chakotay and Seven, it seems to me that the producers/scriptwriters have voluntarily* - or maybe not - left an opened door to other scenarios (*maybe did they suspected that the fans would't be too delighted by their idea) and of course, the authors of fanfictions coming from around the world, were (and still are) able to have a tremendous time.

Indeed, back to the story, IF the Admiral Janeway has fun with the timeline to return in the past and allow her younger Doppelgänger/the crew to return earlier (and safe and sound) but died at the end of the mission, she not only changed the future but canceled it.
Result: only Captain Janeway of the present time exists and she will live the exitence she wants ; As for Chakotay/Seven, maybe will they be married or maybe not, maybe will they die earlier than planned (but it won't be in the same conditions) or maybe not...

Even if I didn't like Endgame, I have to admit that even 15 years after the airing, we keep talking/debatting about its finale. For me, I watched Endgame on last weekend for the first time (I "discovered" Star Trek: Voyager 4 months ago and only watched a couple of episodes/weekend).

 

[Cate]

I have another Endgame question.

Why was Tuvok in a hospital on Earth? Surely he would be better cared for at a Vulcan facility. Also, there isn't any mention of his family visiting him, by either Tuvok himself or the Doc and Berkley. Did they just leave him to it?

 

[hux]

It could be on Vulcan. By 2404, getting to Vulcan might just involve a couple of transports.

His family visit on Thursdays.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It would be humiliating for other Vulcans to see him in that state.

For Tuvok during moments of clarity and his family as then visit the sanitarium when the staff look down on them for being genetically deficient weak stock.

If his family wouldn't visit, then there's no reason to leave him on Vulcan, and I can easily see a logical argument for "my father is gone, that is not my father."

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Wait, Vulcans are not indestructible. I mean, they are born, they live (ok, their life cycle is maybe superior to the average) and they die as everybody (from old age, from disease, are killed or commit suicide).
Tuvok's disease isn't an orphan disease so why it would be humiliating for other Vulcans to see him in that state?

 

[hux]

Those heartless, green-blooded bastards!

What I want to know is why was Chakotay burried on an unrealistic grassy knoll?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

why it would be humiliating for other Vulcans to see him in that state?

Indeed, Vulcans would consider it illogical to deny what is obviously happening, and also would never blame the victim for what the disease is doing to them.

 

[at Quark's]

Indeed, Vulcans would consider it illogical to deny what is obviously happening, and also would never blame the victim for what the disease is doing to them.

That would be true if Vulcans were as completely and thoroughly logical as they profess to be in everyday life. They aren't -- in my view. If they really were that logical, they wouldn't have any qualms in plainly admitting and acknowledging there are situations in which even Vulcans simply lose control through no fault of their own-- for example during Pon Farr , or when developing rare diseases such as Vulcan Alzheimer (Sarek, Benjii Syndrome). But what we've seen, in fact, is shame and denial, when Vulcans experience or are compelled by circumstances to talk about situations like these-- an all too human emotion.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Am I the only one remembering Classic Spock being beaten by his classmate for being impure?

Or NuSpock being submitted to a list of insults it find the level at which human weakness had diminished his Vulcan purity?

Take me out to the Holosuite.

You know that it's entirely possibly that Solok's crew all thought that Solok was an asshole and that they did not want to get involved, but had to, since he was their Captain.

Unless intense specisism was a criteria Solok used to pick his crew?

 

[Tracy Trek]

It would be humiliating for other Vulcans to see him in that state.

For Tuvok during moments of clarity and his family as then visit the sanitarium when the staff look down on them for being genetically deficient weak sock.

If his family wouldn't visit, then there's no reason to leave him on Vulcan, and I can easily see a logical argument for "my father is gone, that is not my father."

This is the thought I had when I first watched and wondered why he was not with his family. And another reason perhaps why Janeway was so obsessed with getting them back earlier.