The browser I am using is google chrome. I do have quote but not edit.Are you seeing a row of options along the bottom of the screen, of which edit should be one? There should also be an option that says + Quote, which will allow you to quote more than one post by hitting it on the ones you want to quote. If not, then it might be an issue with whatever browser or system you're using. I'd be glad to pass on more info to AntonyF if there are normal features that aren't showing up right. As mentioned, we're all still learning how XenForo works.
Star Trek Maps (1980)
- Thread starter Darkwing
- Start date
Not when TMP was released, it wasn't!
All that tells us is that they traveled slower than WF4.5 at the end of TMP
The question then becoes if Spock fixed the enterpirse's warp drive so it can at least go up to warp 7 safely, why would it go to Vulcan at speeds lesser than warp 4.5 and would indicate Scotty's statement to mean they can only go that fast? Incidentally I choose the remastered version of TMP over the original as it fixes Vulcan's sky. The original scenne if you remember had a gigantic supposedlyu sister planet too close and a small moon in between, the remastered version takes them out.
Well, "Yesteryear" shows an equally gigantic companion, while Spock insists Vulcan has no moon. And Romulus and Remus get so close to each other that they must look like that to each other, too.
Whether such celestial dances are even theoretically possible, I don't know. But it's a TNG fact that planetary orbits that make no sense still do exist, puzzling 24th century scientists. Sister planets don't sound like a bad idea in the context.
Timo Saloniemi
Whether such celestial dances are even theoretically possible, I don't know. But it's a TNG fact that planetary orbits that make no sense still do exist, puzzling 24th century scientists. Sister planets don't sound like a bad idea in the context.
Timo Saloniemi
I use Chrome on my PC but since the forum switched to Xenforo I've found Chrome to be extremely laggy on my android phone. Nonetheless, it still works and gives the following options on the threads I've posted:
Of course, you only get these options on your own posts! :-)
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no I don't have a row of options on the bottom of my screen. I do however have like quote and reply on the bottom of each post. The browser I am using is google chorme.Are you seeing a row of options along the bottom of the screen, of which edit should be one? There should also be an option that says + Quote, which will allow you to quote more than one post by hitting it on the ones you want to quote. If not, then it might be an issue with whatever browser or system you're using. I'd be glad to pass on more info to AntonyF if there are normal features that aren't showing up right. As mentioned, we're all still learning how XenForo works.
I would guess it might be a Chrome issue, but he'll know more.If Vulcan orbited a gas giant, we probably ought to see this gas giant from space, too. That is, yes, sometimes the orbiting shots are framed tight enough that the gas giant might be behind the back of the cameraman (but then the gas giant should in turn be high up on the sky from the surface POV!), but we also get shots of starships approaching or departing Vulcan, and there's no companion planet there.
So the companion has to come and go, rather than stay. Which is the most welcome option in terms of general continuity anyway. Intriguingly, TAS "Yesteryear" shows a giant companion at the very same spot on the sky during day and subsequent night! Since Vulcan has a night-day cycle comparable to Earth's, as per that very episode, and since the only way for it to have that is to rotate around its own axis once a day, we either have to assume the companion orbits Vulcan with a one-day orbital period (which is problematic, and probably requires something to be constructed of styrofoam or neutronium) - or that Vulcan's companion was just visiting that night, speeding past the planet just right to hang on the sky above Shi'Kahr for a bit over half a day... Much like Remus would speed past Romulus (Remus aptly seems more distant from Romulus when Picard and Data make their escape than during the opening credits).
Timo Saloniemi
So the companion has to come and go, rather than stay. Which is the most welcome option in terms of general continuity anyway. Intriguingly, TAS "Yesteryear" shows a giant companion at the very same spot on the sky during day and subsequent night! Since Vulcan has a night-day cycle comparable to Earth's, as per that very episode, and since the only way for it to have that is to rotate around its own axis once a day, we either have to assume the companion orbits Vulcan with a one-day orbital period (which is problematic, and probably requires something to be constructed of styrofoam or neutronium) - or that Vulcan's companion was just visiting that night, speeding past the planet just right to hang on the sky above Shi'Kahr for a bit over half a day... Much like Remus would speed past Romulus (Remus aptly seems more distant from Romulus when Picard and Data make their escape than during the opening credits).
Timo Saloniemi
Wouldn't the Gas Giant rip the small moon porbiting Vulcan from it's orbit and at such close proximity wouldn't the gravitational effect of the gas giant wreak havoc with Vulcan if it is only for a short visit? Imagine if Jupiter paid us a similar visit.
We know from dialogue that Vulcans has no small moon orbiting it - so that little sphere might be something the putative gas giant (or somewhat more modestly sized solid visitor even closer by) would toss around instead. Perhaps the Vulcan system has dozens upon dozens of such spherical rocks around, these occasionally being captured by the dance of these bigger planets and thus visiting the proximity of Vulcan, only to disappear to open space soon afterwards?
As for havoc, I'd think there'd be dramatic demand for it. The planet is named (even if only by humans) after a god associated with geological upheavals, after all - and sports exotic, violent geological forms and some signs of volcanism even though in STXI, it is geologically so stable that Nero can drill a hole supposedly deep into the core of the world with a death ray and then drop a probe in there. Volcanism driven by recurring rather than constant tidal forces, not by inner heat, would fit that bill rather nicely.
Timo Saloniemi
As for havoc, I'd think there'd be dramatic demand for it. The planet is named (even if only by humans) after a god associated with geological upheavals, after all - and sports exotic, violent geological forms and some signs of volcanism even though in STXI, it is geologically so stable that Nero can drill a hole supposedly deep into the core of the world with a death ray and then drop a probe in there. Volcanism driven by recurring rather than constant tidal forces, not by inner heat, would fit that bill rather nicely.
Timo Saloniemi
That makes sense. Back tot eh matter of the Sheliak. If Tau Cygna V is 5000LY distant then that would mean it is on a part that is the boarder or became the boarder of the Sheliak Corporate as it is doubtful whether the colonists entered deep into Sheliak territory and colonized a Sheliak planet there. If starfleet can reach 5000LY to form the treaty with the Sheliak, shouldn't the Cardassian, Breen and Ferengi territories be at least 5000LY or more out to avoid the UFP making contact with said territories in the 23rd Century?
Haven't heard anything from Christopher L Bennet, for awhile, do you think he could busy writing another book?
The thing is, it's never been that linear. Pollux, right next door to Earth, was an unknown quantity in the 2260s; Capella was just being contacted; etc. Yet Sheliak at the time was a tourist attraction our heroes visited in a largish shuttlecraft!
It's up to us to invent reasons for why linear distance matters little in Trek. Nearby cultures might remain obscure either because they are good at avoiding contact (the Ferengi would be motivated at least!) or because bully cultures or space anomalies (the Delphic Expanse, the Tyme Barrier) block UFP access to them. On the other hand, cultures might remain obscure simply because there are so many of them: it would take special effort to make contact at all, and the Sheliak, for all their reclusiveness, might have been active partners there, keen on signing preemptive deals, while the Ferengi and the Cardassians were not.
Timo Saloniemi
Not neccasrily. If you leave the Unite States to visit Russia you still have to pass through several countries. It's like sayin there are countries very close tyo the States but US doesn't know about them even though they can travel all around the world
And Trek has countries similar to New Guinea jungle valleys - places without airstrips or radio, left to their own devices for being so adorably primitive. Plus countries comparable to a super high tech North Korea - you cast a look in their general direction at your peril. Earth is very "flat" in such political or technological terms.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
Except that the Ferengi Breen and Caredassian territories are big and close and would be easily spotted and they are not primitive.
And if the UFP is 8000LY in one direction linearly then it would mean it's way bigger than Star Charts
We don't hear of any Ferengi territory as such - I still think it's unlikely the Alliance has any, existing instead on a different plane, one of commercial connections. We do hear how the Ferengi are completely inept at all things military, so conventional conquest and holding onto the spoils would seem out of the question.
But what is "close"? A starship exploring outward draws a line about thirty lightyears thick through wilderness. Sometimes it spots systems of interest, sometimes it gets spotted. Sometimes it probably just flies through an alien realm without anybody noticing. At a distance of a thousand lightyears or more from the UFP core, the exploration sorties would actually touch upon (with sensors at 15 ly effective radius or so) but a tiny percentage of the volume they supposedly span. So space at such distances would not really be explored even after Starfleet has been at it for centuries (although UFP members that have been at it for millennia would contribute knowledge, and so would the locals who in turn no doubt connect to others doing their share of exploring).
At 300-500 ly, would the Cardassian Union and the Breen Confederacy remain unseen or at least obscure? Well, certainly if they simply stopped UFP ships from entering. There's this border there, and then something beyond it that Starfleet cannot study - so the CU and the BC remain essentially unknown even if their existence is known. We have no pressing reason to think that first contact with these cultures would have come late. We only have to believe that the most basic knowledge on these cultures is lacking - just as it remained lacking on the Klingon Empire as late as the early seasons of TNG.
And really, the Star Charts UFP tries to be 8,000 ly across. It's just that it's really diluted at the edges (unlike the more militant empires), and the outermost holdings are individual star systems far, far away from the central core of a few hundred lightyears' radius. That's basically the only way to allow for the unholy trinity of short travel times to competing empires, medium travel times to exotic distant locations, and long travel times across galactic distances: the competitors are up close and personal, and the UFP pushes through between them to study the unknown.
Timo Saloniemi
But what is "close"? A starship exploring outward draws a line about thirty lightyears thick through wilderness. Sometimes it spots systems of interest, sometimes it gets spotted. Sometimes it probably just flies through an alien realm without anybody noticing. At a distance of a thousand lightyears or more from the UFP core, the exploration sorties would actually touch upon (with sensors at 15 ly effective radius or so) but a tiny percentage of the volume they supposedly span. So space at such distances would not really be explored even after Starfleet has been at it for centuries (although UFP members that have been at it for millennia would contribute knowledge, and so would the locals who in turn no doubt connect to others doing their share of exploring).
At 300-500 ly, would the Cardassian Union and the Breen Confederacy remain unseen or at least obscure? Well, certainly if they simply stopped UFP ships from entering. There's this border there, and then something beyond it that Starfleet cannot study - so the CU and the BC remain essentially unknown even if their existence is known. We have no pressing reason to think that first contact with these cultures would have come late. We only have to believe that the most basic knowledge on these cultures is lacking - just as it remained lacking on the Klingon Empire as late as the early seasons of TNG.
And really, the Star Charts UFP tries to be 8,000 ly across. It's just that it's really diluted at the edges (unlike the more militant empires), and the outermost holdings are individual star systems far, far away from the central core of a few hundred lightyears' radius. That's basically the only way to allow for the unholy trinity of short travel times to competing empires, medium travel times to exotic distant locations, and long travel times across galactic distances: the competitors are up close and personal, and the UFP pushes through between them to study the unknown.
Timo Saloniemi
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