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CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

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That's something I'm wondering about, regardless of how the IP suit goes - are there obligations to the donors?

There has to be some, I would imagine. But, technically, it's all of from an illegal promise, yes? I can't make a contract that I'm going to get you cocaine. You can't sue me, right, for your money back... it's an illegal transaction. Right? That's how I've always understood it--that the courts won't uphold an illegal contract.

Can you make a contract--which this is, yes?--to make something that you have no legal right to make?
 
An illegal contract is void and unenforceable.

I can't buy a house from someone who I know not to be the owners, even if we have a ratified contract, it's void.
 
An illegal contract is void and unenforceable.

I can't buy a house from someone who I know not to be the owners, even if we have a ratified contract, it's void.

I wonder if that would apply here. Peters was trying to make a movie where he didn't own the property--he even stated it. And people still donated.

In your example, @Squiggy, if I buy a house from someone I know isn't the owners, and after the contract is voided, do I get my money back? I'm assuming, yes, right? The courts would basically try and make everyone whole again?
 
Well, it's not a perfect analogy. Let's say you didn't know they owners weren't actually the owners. If you had paid all cash AND the contract had already settled AND every single safety check that prefects this from happening didn't prevent this from happening...

The actual owners of the house would get damages and you might get some money back, but you wouldn't get the house. That's the unenforceable part. If you knew the owners weren't legit then there would be a good case not to get any money back.
 
I wonder if that would apply here. Peters was trying to make a movie where he didn't own the property--he even stated it. And people still donated.

In your example, @Squiggy, if I buy a house from someone I know isn't the owners, and after the contract is voided, do I get my money back? I'm assuming, yes, right? The courts would basically try and make everyone whole again?

I don't see why they would, especially if you knew that the person didn't have the right to sell. . Why should you be recompensed if you were equally liable?
 
Since it seems to be that a defense of the Axanar project is that it is "not for profit", perhaps even pursuing if not issued a 501(c)3 US IRS tax-exempt status (or even a different subcategory of tax exempt 501(a) or the like), it seems to me a lot could be cleared up by just concretely stating the date that the application was made and what the current status of the application is. Either IRS form 1023 or 1024 needs to be filed https://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Have-you-completed-and-signed-the-correct-application?

PBS is a production and distribution network for media. A not for profit theater company has a theater and rents it out and collects donations. I suppose in theory, all questions of Trek IP aside, it could be possible for Axanar to be a not for profit Hollywood arts organization focusing on SF productions.

Even more could be done to clear up any misapprehension that this is a for-profit venture, by publishing selected key bits of the IRS application if the charity-in-the-making feels it would not interfere with any discussions with the IRS. One part to issue could be the "organizing document" of the charity (required by the IRS to be in the application) which identifies the charitable beneficiaries of the organization. Another bit could be Part IV of the 1023 application, a description of past, present, and future activities of the organization, which essentially is the mission statement and planned beneficent activities. The application becomes public upon approval in any case, but these bits would show intent pretty clearly.

If "not for profit" is not meant by Axanar in the sense of running this studio/production company under IRS not for profit status, or if somehow there is a vision that Axanar/Ares will somehow interact with a charity also to be created and transfer assets to it and rent them back, or simply it should be taken to mean "is not dispersing any dividends", then being clear about what the phrase does or does not mean in these regards would also help.

It could also be helpful to indicate how the various fundraiser funds are going to be routed into the not for profit organization. For example, are the donations tax exempt as of any particular date? Are the assets bought with the funds under the control of the not for profit organization?

If Axanar/Ares is instead just a for-profit corporation which does not plan to have any dividends to disperse after it makes the film, then for profit language should be used, ie, the firm is "not profitable". But this does not mean the firm does not accumulate assets as a result of its income. A true not for profit holds its assets as a public trust and cannot have equity investors. The fact that Axanar leadership has talked about seeking future equity investors is confusing in this context.

Of course, none of this addresses the lawsuit pe se, since the lawsuit says the IP created "financial benefit", and for-profit/not-for-profit corporations can both accrue financial benefit by receiving income.

Being a 501c3 and saying this meets CBS/Paramount requirements to "not make any money" or perhaps "don't make a profit" is an interesting idea, if this is where it is going. I don't personally think it could work, though. Imagine PBS pitching a new Star Trek movie during their fundraising, saying they have permission because they won't make a profit. But who knows?
 
In the end, the disclosures were made that CBS owned the rights and it might not happen. People still donated. They're not owed anything back.

However, if Kickstarter or anyone else was lied to then they could potentially sue Axanar for the amount donated and do the refund themselves.
 
[...] If you knew the owners weren't legit then there would be a good case not to get any money back.

If anything, wouldn't this fall into conspiring to break a law? A court isn't going to be favorable toward anyone who assisted the violation of a law.
 
To be fair, the title of that video (ie., "Intellectual Property thief Terry McIntosh [...]") was pretty much asking to be taken down (it would fall under defamation... if it had been rephrased as "Terry McIntosh, who is involved in a lawsuit over misuse of Intellectual Property, [...]", that would likely be a different story).

The hyperbolic and defamatory language, so easily thrown around these days, disturbs me (regardless of who the recipient is).

You right. I have reuploaded the video with gentler language "Terry McIntosh bans a Star Trek Axanar donor" and this in the description "Terry McIntosh bans a Star Trek Axanar donor because he doesn't like people asking questions about Axanar."
 
Since it seems to be that a defense of the Axanar project is that it is "not for profit"

That's what AP is using as an excuse to rally the troops and to show "haters" that his professional fan film is no different than any other fan film. But his lawyers aren't gonna use that as a legal defense because the case isn't about that.
 
Looking through Kickstarter's terms of use [granted, this is how it reads today; others can do the legwork to see what the terms were at the time of Axanar's Kickstarters]:

Kickstarter said:
You won’t submit stuff you don’t hold the copyright for (unless you have permission). Your Content will not contain third-party copyrighted material, or material that is subject to other third-party proprietary rights, unless you have permission from the rightful owner of the material, or you are otherwise legally entitled to post the material (and to grant Kickstarter all the license rights outlined here).

Yet, as already pointed out upthread, Axanar's Kickstarter mentioned "Star Trek," "Garth of Izar," "the Battle of Axanar," and "the Federation."

There is also an obligation to clear anything potentially illegal with Kickstarter before starting a project, as discussed in https://www.kickstarter.com/rules/prohibited. (Ditto, that others may do the legwork to discover what the terms were at the time of Axanar's Kickstarters.)
 
In the end, the disclosures were made that CBS owned the rights and it might not happen. People still donated. They're not owed anything back.

However, if Kickstarter or anyone else was lied to then they could potentially sue Axanar for the amount donated and do the refund themselves.

And that could even be how it would go down.

You make something you're not supposed to make. I pay you for it. Can I sue you if I don't get that thing? What if I relied on someone who said it was okay to make the thing, and I paid based on that?

This would make a pretty interesting moot court question.
 
That's what AP is using as an excuse to rally the troops and to show "haters" that his professional fan film is no different than any other fan film. But his lawyers aren't gonna use that as a legal defense because the case isn't about that.

assuming ideas from this bbs find their way outward into the world, the argument seeds the possibility that someone will know how to ask the magic words to call Axanar on all their claims of not for profit status. Those who do not know exactly how to say the key "legal" words are being rebuffed by being told "sorry, you don't know what you are talking about, you lose". Applying the crowbar parser by exactly prying apart the claim and seeing what is inside is a way to fight the contest buzzer.
 
If anything, wouldn't this fall into conspiring to break a law? A court isn't going to be favorable toward anyone who assisted the violation of a law.
Yeah, I realized that after I posted it - hence the imperfect metaphor. Conspiring to steal a house is a bit different than an ignorant fan donating a couple of bucks.

A better analogy would be calling the police because you paid a guy 20 bucks for some weed and he ran off with the money. A judge isn't going to give you your money back.
 
He said it as well on Reddit. Here's an image:

MyYsQtu.png


Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/c..._is_settled_is_there_anyone/cymc0rl?context=3

Axanar is not a 501c3, so moving on... no need to speculate about it IMO.

check out the above from upstream this thread...
 
check out the above from upstream this thread...
"In the process" is a little too late. I forget just what type of corporation Axanar is listed as in California. It's said somewhere pages and pages and pages back in this thread. The thing is, the issue of being "not for profit" and deciding to be "not for profit" are two different things. And again, it just doesn't matter. A non-profit can't use another company's IP without permission, anyway. CBS was just looking the other way and choosing not to enforce it's IP rights as long as no one was making real money off of the project.

If Axanar wanted to make a bold defense and not care what happens to the rest of the fan industry, it could say that it was at least making attempts to distinguish itself from "Star Trek" and was using only "bits and pieces" of the "most general, obscure, or secondary" IP, as opposed to the fan films that featured violations of the most prime Trek IP: Kirk, Spock, McCoy, the Enterprise, faithful reproductions of uniforms, equipment, and sets. CBS allowed these even as they became more and more well done and numerous, only occasionally stepping in. Everyone in fan films gets a certain amount of notoriety from what they do. It can open business opportunities for any of them outside of "Star Trek". In many ways, Axanar is no different in that respect, but was more blatant about saying it. In Axanar's defense, I would say that if it has to shut down for IP violations, then all fan films must stop. There can be no middle ground any more.

Don't know if that holds any water, but in billable minutes (if I were a lawyer), that's only about $80 worth of opinion.
 
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