the first Matrix is amazing and I agree the films had great influence but I still say Blade Runner is the more original and did more for the Cyber-Punk genre, just look at Blade Runners soundtrack cool funky, elecronic, jazzy music...scifi dystopias...artificial intelligence...Blade Runner was so ahead of the curve... atmosphere echoes of science fiction, future people on the edge of society, space horror, futuristic battles, global galactic corporations, film noir...blade Runner sets the stage for it all
"The third great SF franchise"??
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I feel like we're arguing completely different points.
I acknowledge that these films had an impact at the time that they were made, but you're acting like they're still hugely popular with a wide fanbase. They're not. Most people aren't banging doors down looking to get a new Matrix or Avatar movie made. They may have had a lot of impact on the technical side of film-making, but their stories and characters aren't memorable or charismatic enough to remain in the public consciousness.
I gave you numbers--on the other hand, you made the still unsubstantiated claim that Potter produced more merchandise than Star Trek, which is patently false, otherwise it would be easy to prove.
In determining the value and placement of a franchise, a property's place in the general culture is an essential part, so if one seeks to upgrade Potter at the expense of ST as a franchise, then an analysis of how ingrained it is in the general culture cannot be avoided. If you choose to avoid it, and focus on dollars, then I can just cite Avatar--which outgrossed any of the Potter films, and the discussion is over. Moreover, Potter is not SF, so its as out of place here as superhero and Bond films.
I barely introduced sales, after talking about ST's cultural impact--repeatedly.
No, it is not impossible. Cultural study is real, and you will find its use in almost every published study or filmed documentary on a media production of note, whether it is film, like (for example) Star Wars, a TV series such as Star Trek, or music, like that produced by The Beatles of Michael Jackson. It is as much a part in understanding and judging a work as its dollar value.
Again, you add "best selling", but where are the critical articles seriously counting Potter books among the great works of fiction in history? I've not read any critical analysis stating that at all.
LOTR is the standard bearer of written or filmed fantasy--from its own conventions that were/are endlessly cloned/ripped off/borrowed by equally endless books, comics, and filmed media, to its longstanding place as "must read" literature in education, etc. Potter is not on that level.
The Godfather was a major best seller when it hit the stands in 1969, and inspired both critical praise and very vocal hatred from the aforementioned real world organized crime figures (breaking their usual desire for anonymity), and of course, the novel's impact was the reason the rights were sold so quickly for adaptation as a film.
Innumerable publications can make that claim. The same was said of Golden Age comic books, the same was said of LOTR. The same was said of the works of Lucy Maud Montgomery. The same was said of Spidey Super Stories and other CTW spin-off publications. The same was said of major publishers distributing their catalogs to the old "book mobiles". And yes, in the 1970s, the popularity of Star Trek has been said to have inspired young fans of the TV series to take up reading by discovering the James Blish novel adaptations. It goes on and on and on, if you know how this history unfolded.
The following is not an insult, but your lack of awareness only speaks to you--not the cultural impact of a novel that's been one of the best known works for nearly 50 years.
Hmm, for longevity, there was that tale published in 1818 about using science to give vitality to a collection of lifeless body parts culled from the dissection room.That wee tale has had some influence.
Excellent call. That story is one of the best known in literary history. It is both science fiction and horror with cultural and media influences that are close to inestimable.
The Matrix had a lot more impact on Hollywood stories than Avatar. It's never been my favorite film, as I find some aspects of it a tad contrived. But it made it more acceptable to inject complex themes and (pseudo?)-philosophy into big budget films. Without Matrix we wouldn't have had Inception. Whereas Avatar didn't make it any more likely to get 'protect the environmentalist natives from the technologically advanced jerks I came with' stories.
Off the bat Trek_God - no one is claiming Potter has usurped Trek in the public consciousness. We're talking about third place.
You used merch as evidence of cultural impact. I called bullshit on that premise, not Trek's overall position. True, I didn't give a raw 'number' of how much Potter produced. You claimed Trek merch has earned (and provably produced) 4 billion dollars worth in fifty years, I linked showing Potter merch earned (and thus produced at least) more than that in less than 20 years. Unless you have another piece of evidence other than 'I think/believe', that's it.
Yes, cultural (and media) studies exist. I actually studied it (a bit) at university when getting my undergrad degree. Researchers don't tend to do the sort of broad topic we're discussing here, mostly because it's too damn vague, pointless and time consuming. There's a difference between what we're doing, and a study in 'What was Blah's impact on society and that's important because of Reason (typically relating to an -ism)'.
Finally - The Godfather. You keep claiming it was a critically acclaimed classic, so prove it. Give us any example of a published critic calling it one of the greats, preferably published before the film came out. As for 'best of lists' Potter is on, TIME had it on the best children's novels of all time, and it's in the 1001 Novel's You Must Read Before You Die. Googles not working, so that's all I have at the mo'.
You used merch as evidence of cultural impact. I called bullshit on that premise, not Trek's overall position. True, I didn't give a raw 'number' of how much Potter produced. You claimed Trek merch has earned (and provably produced) 4 billion dollars worth in fifty years, I linked showing Potter merch earned (and thus produced at least) more than that in less than 20 years. Unless you have another piece of evidence other than 'I think/believe', that's it.
Yes, cultural (and media) studies exist. I actually studied it (a bit) at university when getting my undergrad degree. Researchers don't tend to do the sort of broad topic we're discussing here, mostly because it's too damn vague, pointless and time consuming. There's a difference between what we're doing, and a study in 'What was Blah's impact on society and that's important because of Reason (typically relating to an -ism)'.
Finally - The Godfather. You keep claiming it was a critically acclaimed classic, so prove it. Give us any example of a published critic calling it one of the greats, preferably published before the film came out. As for 'best of lists' Potter is on, TIME had it on the best children's novels of all time, and it's in the 1001 Novel's You Must Read Before You Die. Googles not working, so that's all I have at the mo'.
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I also thought about the stories encompassing "lost worlds" given us by Doyle, Burroughs and Verne, among others, but those aren't really "a franchise." Though their influence is widespread.
I think there is a big difference between franchise and influence...Flash Gordon, Kurosawa, the original Metropolis....they have all faded into history yet many fans would think Star Wars was the original...franchises are often measured by the toys, the merchandise, the selling power...not by their originality
1. Star Wars
2. Star Trek
3. Doctor Who
4. Stargate
5. Aliens/Predator/Prometheus
6. Battlestar Galactica
7. Planet of the Apes
8. Transformers
9. Gundam
10. Space Battleship Yamato
...everything else
Doctor Who: While I've only see a scant few episodes of DH over it's many years(half of S1 Torchwood) I can't ignore it's seemingly popularity when at 'Cons. It's pop culture impact(TBBT maybe a slanted example I dunno) beyond it's shores here in the Colonies is fairly big.
Gundam & SBY: I acknowledge an awareness of both but unlike my DW example I rarely see people excited about it here. I don't see mentions of it in other media or even vague references. My college roommate loved Yamato and that was my largest exposure some 20yrs ago. Gundam, I think, had a toy line attempt some 10yrs ago but didn't take hold. I personally love Voltron but see few mentions of that so I equate to some degree these two like that.
Potter & LOTR: I would assign into the Fantasy category. Since the OP is stating sic-fi my criteria would need for the franchise to explicitly have origins/ties to space and other worlds.
Avatar: Tell me again who really is fascinated by this film. Sure, we all saw it in 3-D and it's technical aspects were bar none amazing. It's characters and story were poorly written versions of stories told better. I'm glad I had an advance free screener cause after having seen it once I didn't care to pay for a second viewing, 3-D or not. There is virtually no chance you'll see me in the theater for it's sequel. It has no pop culture impact and no stories have existed to keep it even in some niche genre outlets(comics/novels).
Twilight Zone/Outer Limits is a mix of many things and so by my understanding of the OP's question, it's not space related science fiction. Great fiction across many genres but somehow it's own thing in another classification.
One day I need to watch more DH, see if I can actually get into it vs sporadic episodes.
Also need to take a shot at Blakes 7. I notice Robotech has gone 6 pages with no mention. For those more familiar with the Pacific Rim sic-fi scene is that not big enough for consideration?
Things like Firefly/Serenity, Starhunter, Farscape, Space 1999 and even Babylon 5 while good-to-great just never took a longterm foot hold.
2. Star Trek
3. Doctor Who
4. Stargate
5. Aliens/Predator/Prometheus
6. Battlestar Galactica
7. Planet of the Apes
8. Transformers
9. Gundam
10. Space Battleship Yamato
...everything else
Doctor Who: While I've only see a scant few episodes of DH over it's many years(half of S1 Torchwood) I can't ignore it's seemingly popularity when at 'Cons. It's pop culture impact(TBBT maybe a slanted example I dunno) beyond it's shores here in the Colonies is fairly big.
Gundam & SBY: I acknowledge an awareness of both but unlike my DW example I rarely see people excited about it here. I don't see mentions of it in other media or even vague references. My college roommate loved Yamato and that was my largest exposure some 20yrs ago. Gundam, I think, had a toy line attempt some 10yrs ago but didn't take hold. I personally love Voltron but see few mentions of that so I equate to some degree these two like that.
Potter & LOTR: I would assign into the Fantasy category. Since the OP is stating sic-fi my criteria would need for the franchise to explicitly have origins/ties to space and other worlds.
Avatar: Tell me again who really is fascinated by this film. Sure, we all saw it in 3-D and it's technical aspects were bar none amazing. It's characters and story were poorly written versions of stories told better. I'm glad I had an advance free screener cause after having seen it once I didn't care to pay for a second viewing, 3-D or not. There is virtually no chance you'll see me in the theater for it's sequel. It has no pop culture impact and no stories have existed to keep it even in some niche genre outlets(comics/novels).
Twilight Zone/Outer Limits is a mix of many things and so by my understanding of the OP's question, it's not space related science fiction. Great fiction across many genres but somehow it's own thing in another classification.
One day I need to watch more DH, see if I can actually get into it vs sporadic episodes.
Also need to take a shot at Blakes 7. I notice Robotech has gone 6 pages with no mention. For those more familiar with the Pacific Rim sic-fi scene is that not big enough for consideration?
Things like Firefly/Serenity, Starhunter, Farscape, Space 1999 and even Babylon 5 while good-to-great just never took a longterm foot hold.
I have always been a Space:1999 fan, albeit I must agree that it is just a minor science-fiction franchise.
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Yes, but part of that much bigger Anderson franchise I mentioned earlier....I have always been a Space:1999 fan, Albeit I must agree that it is just a minor science-fiction franchise.
If we are talking Gerry Anderson, I would say Thunderbirds is likely the most remembered show. Sure I know he did others
Stingray
Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons
Super Car
Fireball XL5
Joe 90
Terrahawks
and the live action
UFO
Space 1999
Space Precinct
Sure they are others but which one(s) do people who aren't into Sci-Fi remember?
Agree. Gerry Anderson franchise made up of multiple series.
I'm not denying it did any of that, but Harry Potter was an absolutely worldwide phenomenon, and I just doubt very much that The Godfather book was at the same level. Very, very few books have been at the level of Harry Potter, and I doubt very much that The Godfather was one of them.
OK, I'll give us this one.
The movie has been, but if the book was at that same level, or at the same level as Harry Potter then there would be no way I could have grown up and not known it existed.
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Again, you not knowing it is not an accurate assessment of the impact of the novel. From personal experience, I knew people who did not know what Star Wars was at the height of its popularity in the early 80s (and I lived in one America's most populated cities at the time), but being unaware was the result of whatever issue or place in life of the individuals--not a problem with the movie's familiarity to everyone else.
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third might be DC...or Marvel depending how you count it
Batman alone is a huge franchise
Batman alone is a huge franchise
I still think Stargate deserves to be there, at least in the top5
I can tell you 90% of the people on this planet, kids, girls, old men they all know who 'Batman' is from the United States of America, to Brazil, to S.Africa, to S.Korea...everyone would give a brief description
not all of them know James T. Kirk or Skywalker....if it were not for JJ's new movie Skywalker also would fade into obscurity like Buck Rodgers, Flash Gordon or Buckaroo Banzai
I see DC or Marvel at the top today while the Potters, Trek and Starwars fight for third place
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