For some people, whenever a more powerful force opposes a weaker force, they rally for the underdog. I'm not going to go into all the areas where this happens as they are all highly politicized. You can fill in the blanks. But people just have a hard time stepping back and judging things evenly when the power situation is so lopsided. It's very easy to lock into viewing it as David and Goliath, the oppressed against the oppressor.
CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar
- Thread starter Richard Baker
- Start date
- Status
For some people, whenever a more powerful force opposes a weaker force, they rally for the underdog. I'm not going to go into all the areas where this happens as they are all highly politicized. You can fill in the blanks. But people just have a hard time stepping back and judging things evenly when the power situation is so lopsided. It's very easy to lock into viewing it as David and Goliath, the oppressed against the oppressor.
Yes, i'm well aware of how most of this works-- I work tangentially in the industry (not in the movie industry, though). That's why I pointed out that a large portion of Paramount's executive leadership and legal team were brought in after 2006 (and many after 2009). Many are young, some even under 35, and most probably don't even know who David Gerrold is outside of being a creative consultant on Axanar...
It's very likely that Gerrold has ZERO insight into their thinking, which is sort of why I object to people (not here) using his comments as some sort of gospel.
So what I said I stand by: he probably has some general knowledge of studio operation (more than the average fan), but whatever he does know is likely outdated, and he probably doesn't know any of the people currently involved.
Of course, all speculation, as you say, but I remain highly skeptical. As a consultant on Axanar he's hardly impartial.
It's very likely that Gerrold has ZERO insight into their thinking, which is sort of why I object to people (not here) using his comments as some sort of gospel.
So what I said I stand by: he probably has some general knowledge of studio operation (more than the average fan), but whatever he does know is likely outdated, and he probably doesn't know any of the people currently involved.
Of course, all speculation, as you say, but I remain highly skeptical. As a consultant on Axanar he's hardly impartial.
He is also very involved in the Phase II production as well. I don't think anyone here could argue his knowledge on this matter. He certainly would have more insight on this than any of us here.
I think there are those who are predisposed to join up with the structure outlined by Mr. Lifton, and as I mentioned, they may attach anywhere they can find a spot, whenever one creates a public activity. its really reprehensible to enable such people to act out.
But my suspicion of the core staff is that they just dare not say anything, or out the airlock they will go. there certainly could be some group-think going on, but I suspect they retain their senses and live with things as long as progress on the goal, and the private space carved out by each person remains good. they are probably hoping for a miracle about now.
But my suspicion of the core staff is that they just dare not say anything, or out the airlock they will go. there certainly could be some group-think going on, but I suspect they retain their senses and live with things as long as progress on the goal, and the private space carved out by each person remains good. they are probably hoping for a miracle about now.
Do we have any actual proof of this (even just a statement from Oliva)?
I could. I certainly don't work at Paramount or CBS, nor have I ever been involved in filmmaking or a major copyright protection case, but i've worked for companies that own or control extremely valuable IP and have been involved in the licensing, marketing and protection of such IP. I can't pretend to know what the motives or arguments Paramount/CBS holds, but I can certainly use just as much firsthand knowledge form a different perspective) to make an educated guess, just as Gerrold is.
I think what bothers me is that, while no one would give a lot of credence to what I have to say beyond it being some informed speculation (as they should not)-- because i'm a nobody-- a lot of fans, particularly Axanar supporters, give Gerrold a lot of undue credibility because of his previous connections to Trek, when in reality he knows a lot less than he lets on (and is far more biased than he claims).
He's got some skin in this game, so while his opinion may be biased, it's certainly not idle speculation. As someone involved with these productions and someone familiar with Star Trek (biblically) as well as having his own battles with IP, I think there is very little question about his credibility and the reliability of his information. The bias is certainly from the fact that he has a vested interest in the outcome of this matter. I can't begrudge the man for that. He certainly has earned it.
Agree to disagree then.
It simply bothers me that Axanerds (is that the preferred nomenclature now?) share Gerrold's comments as if he's an expert witness on copyright law, and use his self-described "unbiased take" as evidence that Axanar actually has a leg to stand on.
It simply bothers me that Axanerds (is that the preferred nomenclature now?) share Gerrold's comments as if he's an expert witness on copyright law, and use his self-described "unbiased take" as evidence that Axanar actually has a leg to stand on.
The defenders of Axanar will use whatever they want (regardless of context) to support their argument. If anyone knows something about copyright law and IP (with regards to Star Trek at the very least), it's David Gerrold. Of course the people involved with Azanar want him in their corner. Gerrold's support of Axanar must feel pretty good, especially when the Axanar fold have stepped into it pretty deep with CBS/Paramount. They've been poking the bear a lot, and the bear is pretty pissed.
It just seems odd that Gerrold, of all people, are in their corner after what Roddenberry tried to do to him.
He got to do Blood And Fire on Phase II. He is actively involved as their "show runner." Of course he is going to defend the fan film community. I don't know the people doing the Axanar production, but they keep shooting themselves in the foot. It doesn't help their cause one iota. They're doing Star Trek. Star Trek belongs to CBS/Paramount. That basic fact shouldn't be ignored, or have a nose thumbed at it. Plain and simple.
But he's not defending the community-- he's defending Axanar. Big difference. Paramount/CBS is not so far going after the community: they're going after ONE production that it seems pretty clear has violated MANY of their very generous stipulations for fan films.
It's not unique to him, though. A lot of the loud, chest-thumping defenders are making noise because of (unfounded) fears that this will lead to the end of all Star Trek fan films. So far there is absolutely no indication that this will go beyond Axanar.
So these folks who fear an end to this little "industry" are lashing out at CBS when really there's no need to. Until other injunctions are filed against other productions, I think fans should take a "wait-and-see" approach when it comes to the larger community.
After all, New Voyages just released a new episode (that they'd been very vocal about producing for the past many months) and so far we haven't heard a peep from a lawyer. Until we do, panic and "defense of the community" is unnecessary.
Yeah, what's particularly saddening about this is that it's exactly that - some people are defending Axanar by "wrapping themselves in the flag" of defending all fan films.
What's really happening is that some folks associated with Axanar are more than willing to hold the efforts of other people on other projects hostage to their own misjudgments, and to burn down the whole damn house to save their project.
What's really happening is that some folks associated with Axanar are more than willing to hold the efforts of other people on other projects hostage to their own misjudgments, and to burn down the whole damn house to save their project.
And I choose to assume based on what evidence there is available.
The burden of proof is on you, my friend. If Gerrold has been so prolific in professional television and film production, he's doing a bang-up job keeping it a secret. His behavior to date however just further cements my opinion that he hasn't done anything outside of the fan-film circles in nearly two decades, and his further involvement and use of the Axanar debacle is an embarrassment, clearly someone who believes he was meant for greatness now making one more (last?), sad attempt to recapture whatever chance at glory he thought should have been rightly his to begin with.
,
No, not every job gets posted. THat's very true. I have to go in sometimes to post mine because they get missed.
But there is an official person (either at the studio.network or at IMDb who inputs credits and jobs for all major (and minor) professional, legit programs. I know this because that's how the bulk of my page has been filled. I'd wager that's the case for others as well.
So apart from the extremely unlikely scenario you posit that Gerrold is moonlighting under a different name while also "showrunning" (
) New Voyages and being Vito Corleone to Alec's... well, I was going to say Michael but he's definitely not Michael. He's more Fredo's stupidity with Sonny's temper, with the backstabbing, treasonous cowardice of Tessio... even then, an egotistical blowhard like Gerrold is still going to make sure his credits are known. And even if he isn't, someone at the studio/network will.If he's not doing anything to have any actual credits, if he say, had a development deal somewhere, we'd easily be able to find it in the trades. They report on that shit all. the. time. Never mind that he'd be telling people and he'd have an office and an assistant somewhere... and yet... nothing.
And, if he's whole "I don't have a dog in this fight" disclaimers while also commenting on the legality of the CBS lawsuit and pleading for some fair-share, equitable solution that would benefit him hypocrisy isn't enough to prove that he is, you know, a giant hypocrite, here's another example of same hypocrisy and/or cognizant dissonance.
Last edited:
Everyone, except Alec Peters, who just throws the other fan films and fan filmmakers under the bus every chance he gets if there's even the slightest chance it will bolster his own defenses.
"But mommy, little brother took a cookie too! I'm an attorney!!! Waaaa!!!"
This could very well end fan films as we know them. The Axanar production, by thumbing their nose at CBS/Paramount, by claiming their project is not just some fan film, but an independent Star Trek film, by showing a picture of them celebrating by eating sushi when they get served...all these things are ruining it for everyone.. CBS/Paramount don't actually care about the money, but the conceit that somehow the fans can do whatever they want with their IP, including and not limited to selling unauthorized merchandise, drawing a salary, and using the Star Trek name as a means of promoting themselves. All CBS has to say is enough and it all gets shut down. All of it. That's the danger here. I am not thumping my chest. I am also not taking Axanar's side (I think they're idiots for thinking that their production is so over the wall awesome that CBS/Paramount should just give them the keys to the vault), but I do think that making Axanar an example sets a dangerous precedent moving forward. Instead of waiting and seeing, some people should be having a "come to Jesus talk" with these people. More harm will come of this than good if CBS/Paramount decides that allowing fan films is too much bother. By the way... it bears repeating that Gerrold is involved with Phase II as well, so when I say he's got skin in this game, I am referring to fan projects as a whole. This decision will effect everyone.
Exactly. CBS to pays many lawyers to do many things, but suing with an unruly fan films should never be one them. As an unofficial, unsanctioned industry the fan film community exists with the Sword of Damocles above its head.
- Status