Star Trek Maps (1980)

[drt]

Yeah, the chi factor is great for making the "official" cubed Warp Factor more akin to what TOS depicted in terms of extremely high speeds. It's not so good when applied to TNG era speeds, since they seemed to stick far more rigidly to the velocity's given on that series' warp scale.

However, I always had the feeling that distances were intended to be further apart in TOS* than was retconned into TNG (e.g. the Klingon homeworld was likely supposed to be 1000s of light years away, not 100), so the slower speeds generally work OK for TNG.

* = off the top of my head the only systems that seem to close to Earth to not have been explored already assuming a "large" TOS UFP were Pollux in "Who Mourns" and Sigma Draconis in "Spock's Brain" - but maybe we can apply the same philosophy that resulted in the Rigel system being a different "Rigel" than Beta Orionis in the sequel shows

 

[Christopher]

off the top of my head the only systems that seem to close to Earth to not have been explored already assuming a "large" TOS UFP were Pollux in "Who Mourns" and Sigma Draconis in "Spock's Brain"

Triacus from "And the Children Shall Lead" was in Epsilon Indi, a very near system (one of the Federation founders according to Franz Joseph, and the Andorian home system according to various older sources). While not completely unknown, it did seem to be a "frontier" system that had been little explored.

 

[Novak Senkovic]

It's interesting that variable warp velocities are being discussed in this thread; the booklet that came with the map posited a value χ (chi) that accounted for that.

except that the variables make warp speeds too fast

 

[Novak Senkovic]

the cubed warp factor speeds are too slow for the original series

 

[Mytran]

Novak Senkovic - you can always use the "EDIT" function to add fresh text to your earlier posts, minutes or even hours later (your call). It's down there near the bottom of each post you make.

except that the variables make warp speeds too fast

Actually, they were designed with the function of bringing the cubed warp factor speeds into line with the velocities we saw in TOS - namely, the 200,000c we saw in Obsession & Bread and Circuses, the apparent 760,000c we saw in That Which Survives and the casual trip back to Cestus III after being thrown 500 parsecs in Arena.

The difficulty comes when we try and apply a similar variation to TNG speeds - they far outpace what was seen on the show!

However, I always had the feeling that distances were intended to be further apart in TOS* than was retconned into TNG (e.g. the Klingon homeworld was likely supposed to be 1000s of light years away, not 100), so the slower speeds generally work OK for TNG

The idea of the Klingon homeworld being a couple of thousand light years from earth seems to have persisted up to TUC, with Kirk's offhand comment about being "a thousand light years from Federation Headquarters" to Gorkon. Or was that just a sarcastic excuse for drinking Romulan ale?

off the top of my head the only systems that seem to close to Earth to not have been explored already assuming a "large" TOS UFP were Pollux in "Who Mourns" and Sigma Draconis in "Spock's Brain" - but maybe we can apply the same philosophy that resulted in the Rigel system being a different "Rigel" than Beta Orionis in the sequel shows

Triacus from "And the Children Shall Lead" was in Epsilon Indi, a very near system (one of the Federation founders according to Franz Joseph, and the Andorian home system according to various older sources). While not completely unknown, it did seem to be a "frontier" system that had been little explored.

Thanks for this - I think that most of the "real" stars mentioned in TOS are fairly close to Earth (in astronomical terms, that is!). Gamma Hydrae is another one that springs to mind (133ly)

Does this mean that all TOS vessels dart from one system to another at 200,000c? No, I think that is reserved solely for the top-of-the-line Starships and even then it will tax their engines with prolonged use, requiring ever increasing amounts of downtime and maintenance. Picard is probably just a more careful driver

 

[Timo]

Triacus from "And the Children Shall Lead" was in Epsilon Indi

It's not all that clear - what is said is that folks from Triacus waged war "throughout the system of Epsilon Indi". We can believe in multiple inhabited planets in a single system, or then we can believe in this past evil having been "marauding across the galaxy", "again"...

Triacus and Epsilon Indi need not even be next-door neighbors for the latter to be true. We could reserve the latter star for the Andorians, or for Draylax, or whatever.

I think that most of the "real" stars mentioned in TOS are fairly close to Earth

...And nevertheless unknown quantities. In contrast, relatively distant ones like Rigel appear better known! This tells more about the availability of starships for exploration than it does about their speed, I guess. Choices have to be made, and within the "explored" volume of space, only a select few stars and planets are actually known to any detail.

The idea of the Klingon homeworld being a couple of thousand light years from earth seems to have persisted up to TUC, with Kirk's offhand comment about being "a thousand light years from Federation Headquarters" to Gorkon. Or was that just a sarcastic excuse for drinking Romulan ale?

Or then acquiring that ale was possible 1000 ly from Earth, after which the Enterprise would be well stocked for future dinners, to be held at arbitrary locations. Kirk had to find some use for that huge basement they installed in ST:TMP!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

I think that most of the "real" stars mentioned in TOS are fairly close to Earth (in astronomical terms, that is!).

Deneb is actually quite far away, the most distant real star mentioned in TOS, although it wasn't known just how far it actually was until the HIPPARCOS survey in the '90s. (Which makes it coincidentally fitting that Deneb IV was chosen as the site of Farpoint Station, the most distant Federation outpost, in TNG.)

Does this mean that all TOS vessels dart from one system to another at 200,000c? No, I think that is reserved solely for the top-of-the-line Starships and even then it will tax their engines with prolonged use, requiring ever increasing amounts of downtime and maintenance. Picard is probably just a more careful driver

I long ago realized that it's best for one's peace of mind if one just ignores most numbers cited in Trek, or treats them more as placeholders than accurate data.

 

[Novak Senkovic]

Deneb is actually quite far away, the most distant real star mentioned in TOS, although it wasn't known just how far it actually was until the HIPPARCOS survey in the '90s. (Which makes it coincidentally fitting that Deneb IV was chosen as the site of Farpoint Station, the most distant Federation outpost, in TNG.)

And Picard says"beyond (Deneb) which lies the great unexplored mass of the galaxy" meaning explored space is 1400LY. The farthest that was travelled in The Oriignal series was the edge of the galaxy and closer 900 LY. Eventually the Federation would have caught up with these areas and incorporated them so probably 1400LY is the new radius of the Federation at one end if unequally expanded.


I long ago realized that it's best for one's peace of mind if one just ignores most numbers cited in Trek, or treats them more as placeholders than accurate data.

 

[Christopher]

And Picard says"beyond (Deneb) which lies the great unexplored mass of the galaxy" meaning explored space is 1400LY. The farthest that was travelled in The Oriignal series was the edge of the galaxy and closer 900 LY. Eventually the Federation would have caught up with these areas and incorporated them so probably 1400LY is the new radius of the Federation at one end if unequally expanded.

Again, you're making the mistake of confusing space explored by the Federation with space belonging to the Federation. The former would logically be far, far larger. As I already said, exploratory powers routinely travel far beyond their actual borders. It'd be a pretty crappy form of exploration if you never went any farther than the territory you already possess -- and it'd be a pretty imperialistic form of exploration if you declared yourself the owner of every bit of land you ever visited.

I mean, it's right there in the opening narration: To boldly go where no one has gone before. Star Trek is about the exploration of the space far beyond home territory, beyond what the Federation knows or controls. Farpoint Station represents the furthest Federation outpost, like a frontier fort in the Old West or a British naval base in the East Indies. It's a very great distance beyond the borders of Federation territory itself.

(By the way, in the future, try not to insert your own comments in the middle of a quote of someone else's post. It took me a while to realize that you'd inserted new comments in the middle of the quote of my post.)

 

[Novak Senkovic]

with regard to the Americas as being the frontier who did it belong to, the Briditsh until the revolution. Austraslia was also out there yet it was also a part of the british empire. When the Federation expands where no one has gone before it means beyond explored space so beyond farpoint 1400LY from Earth. Also, when the Federation expands it tries to incorporate other planets into itself by asking the locals if they want to be in it or not otherwise it leaves them alone which makes it different from imperialistic expansion but with it's fast warp speeds eventually the Federation would "catch up" to it's explored territory.

 

[Christopher]

with regard to the Americas as being the frontier who did it belong to, the Briditsh until the revolution.

Uhh, no, it belonged to the Native Americans for quite a few millennia before Europeans showed up, obviously. And the first Europeans to claim territory in the Americas were the Spanish, of course, starting in the 1490s, followed by Portugal. The first successful English colony wasn't established until 1607.

Austraslia was also out there yet it was also a part of the british empire.

Australia has been inhabited by its own indigenous people for at least 45,000 years, the longest known continuous habitation of any human population in world history, before Europeans came in a paltry few centuries ago and slaughtered most of them. The first Dutch explorers to discover Australia did so about 200 years before the first British colony on the continent.

When the Federation expands where no one has gone before it means beyond explored space so beyond farpoint 1400LY from Earth.

No, that's where Starfleet goes. Not where the political borders of the Federation are. I mean, think about it. American astronauts landed on the Moon on July 20, 1969, but the Moon did not instantly become the 51st state. Just going somewhere does not make it part of your country.

but with it's fast warp speeds eventually the Federation would "catch up" to it's explored territory.

Wait a minute, now you seem to be agreeing that the explored territory goes far beyond its extant borders. So why were you arguing with this self-evident point earlier?

 

[Novak Senkovic]

I'm just saying that the explored territory of up to 1400LY could indeed be a part of the Federation

 

[Novak Senkovic]

so the explored space of 900LY in part will eventually become a part of the UFP or else the UFP will surpass it, certainly by the 24th century

 

[Novak Senkovic]

the moon didn't become the 51st state because no one can calim property in outerspace, and it takes too long to get to the moon and back, 6 day round trip, and it's too difficult and the program was cut. Starfleet on the other hand can reach long distances quickly, it continues to explore so the UFP follows suit, and terirotry explored can become a part of the UFP. IF it's easy for a starship to travel 500 parsecs as indicated in Arena, or 900 LY or 773LY then surely it wouldn't be long for the UFP to reach and surpass these areas.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Just going somewhere does not make it part of your country.

Darn it, and we were *this* close to getting Florida...

 

[Novak Senkovic]

Still it's a bit hard to believe that the Federation through starfleet has explored up to 1400LY yet is only 250LY at it's longest

ps

I was wondering Crhistopher how did you get Paramount interested in publishing your book? Just curious as I am going through an Independant Publishing company/

 

[Novak Senkovic]

Novak Senkovic - you can always use the "EDIT" function to add fresh text to your earlier posts, minutes or even hours later (your call). It's down there near the bottom of each post you make.


Actually, they were designed with the function of bringing the cubed warp factor speeds into line with the velocities we saw in TOS - namely, the 200,000c we saw in Obsession & Bread and Circuses, the apparent 760,000c we saw in That Which Survives and the casual trip back to Cestus III after being thrown 500 parsecs in Arena.

The difficulty comes when we try and apply a similar variation to TNG speeds - they far outpace what was seen on the show!


The idea of the Klingon homeworld being a couple of thousand light years from earth seems to have persisted up to TUC, with Kirk's offhand comment about being "a thousand light years from Federation Headquarters" to Gorkon. Or was that just a sarcastic excuse for drinking Romulan ale?


Thanks for this - I think that most of the "real" stars mentioned in TOS are fairly close to Earth (in astronomical terms, that is!). Gamma Hydrae is another one that springs to mind (133ly)

Does this mean that all TOS vessels dart from one system to another at 200,000c? No, I think that is reserved solely for the top-of-the-line Starships and even then it will tax their engines with prolonged use, requiring ever increasing amounts of downtime and maintenance. Picard is probably just a more careful driver

I suspect that Kirk was using a metaphor when he said "from a planet over a thousnad light years away" just as Nurse Chapel did when she said "Are we still chasing that thing halfway across the galaxy. Not sure about Bread and Circuses have to look it up when I get the time. The 100LY travelled in That Which Survives was due to an instability in the warp feild created by the matter and antimatter injectors being tampered with. I also presume that the trip back to Cestus III could take up to a month but Kirk didn't make it back to Cestus three as en route because 8 days later they encountered the events in The Alternative Factor, but you take my point that they did go places fast in TOS as opposed to TNG. Perhaps one explanation would be to create a series of temporary subspace bridges acoss space. This would explain how the Federation could have a lithium (which I take to be short for DIlithium) mining station some 15000LY distant. By the same token the enterprise D traversed space beyond 1400LY and still got back to Earth within less than a year. In the end though warp speed is the speed of plot but it's fun trying to work it out.

 

[Novak Senkovic]

I suspect that Kirk was using a metaphor when he said "from a planet over a thousnad light years away" just as Nurse Chapel did when she said "Are we still chasing that thing halfway across the galaxy." Not sure about Bread and Circuses have to look it up when I get the time. The 1000LY travelled in That Which Survives was due to an instability in the warp feild created by the matter and antimatter injectors being tampered with. I also presume that the trip back to Cestus III could take up to a month but Kirk didn't make it back to Cestus three as en route because 8 days later they encountered the events in The Alternative Factor, but you take my point that they did go places fast in TOS as opposed to TNG. Perhaps one explanation would be to create a series of temporary subspace bridges acoss space. This would explain how the Federation could have a lithium (which I take to be short for DIlithium) mining station some 15000LY distant. By the same token the enterprise D traversed space beyond 1400LY and still got back to Earth within less than a year. In the end though warp speed is the speed of plot but it's fun trying to work it out.

corrected errors can't see an edit function what does it look like?

 

[Mytran]

Look at the bottom of your last post; it should say "EDIT / DELETE / REPORT / REPLY"


Regarding Deneb being at the edge of the Federation and just 1400ly away, I think that's OK. A sphere with a radius of 1400ly would have a volume of 11,500,000,000 cubic light years. That's a phenomenal amount of stars!

There's also nothing to say that the Fed is equal distance in all directions

 

[Christopher]

It's obvious from "Encounter at Farpoint" that Deneb IV is not actually part of the Federation. The Bandi are a remote and mysterious civilization that has built an advanced space station far beyond what they should be capable of. Starfleet has sent the Enterprise to negotiate for permission to use the station as a support base for Starfleet vessels as they begin a probe even deeper into uncharted space, and to investigate the mysterious construction methods the Bandi used. The Bandi are not formally allied with the Federation, as Groppler Zorn attempts to gain leverage with Picard by threatening to ally with the Ferengi instead. And when the Bandi's cruelty toward the space jellyfish is revealed, it scuttles any hope of an alliance.

So, no. It's a profound misreading of the episode to assume this is happening on the edge of the Federation itself. It's far beyond the actual borders of the Federation, on the most remote world they've so far made diplomatic contact with. The word "Federation" isn't even mentioned in the episode -- the Bandi are negotiating with Starfleet, the organization responsible for probing the uncharted depths of space.