Heroes Reborn - Season 1 Discussion Thread (with Spoilers)

[Christopher]

But we never saw him use his powers to heal himself, or got a description of how his body is returned to it's original state.

For the fifty gajillionth time, I'm not talking about what they showed. I'm talking about what I wish they had done instead of what they showed, because I dislike the tendency of too many works of fiction to portray shapeshifters as being unable to heal themselves, because I think that's a bad idea due to the inherent contradiction that writers keep failing to consider. It's a trope that I wish would stop being used because it doesn't make sense.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

We get that it's what you wish happened. But it didn't, and there's absolutely nothing on the show to indicate that it would have. Your desperate wishes otherwise have no bearing on those facts whatsoever.

 

[sojourner]

Someone report a dead horse around here?

 

[The Old Mixer]

If they do ever try again, they should leave out astronomical phenomena. They really have no understanding of them at all.

Doesn't stop J. J. Abrams from making a billion dollars.

 

[Christopher]

We get that it's what you wish happened. But it didn't, and there's absolutely nothing on the show to indicate that it would have. Your desperate wishes otherwise have no bearing on those facts whatsoever.

What in the world are you talking about? "Desperate wishes?" It's called criticism. It's the main purpose this discussion forum even exists -- so that we can express our opinions, questions, and criticisms of what we see on TV shows and movies. I'm hardly the only TrekBBS member who has ever voiced a negative opinion about something from a TV episode or suggested a way it could've been done better. I'm certainly not the first person in this thread to have complained that something in a Heroes Reborn episode was implausible or badly done.

 

[sojourner]

 

[Christopher]

Hmm... I'm uncomfortable with the direction "Company Woman" took. It's a cliched and problematical choice to use rape as the defining element in a female character's backstory. Male characters are allowed all sorts of different motivators, but too many writers default to giving women motivations that revolve entirely around their sexuality and reproduction. Of course, rape as motivation can occasionally be a valid storytelling choice if handled right, as in Jessica Jones or Mad Max: Fury Road. But in general, it's hugely overused and often not handled well at all. And in this case, it felt rote, lazy, and gratuitous, especially with it being tacked on so late in the game, too late to make Erica seem at all like a sympathetic character.

Even aside from the problematical sexual politics, I find it simplistic to explain a character's hatred toward an entire group as a reaction to one member of that group doing one bad thing to them. That's not how bigotry generally works. Most people who are, say, homophobic didn't get that way because some individual gay person hurt them in their past; it's because they were raised in a society that conditioned them to have certain beliefs and attitudes toward sexual orientation in general, and to make them fear being hurt by gay people with no real basis for that fear. And people who are racist didn't get that way because they were actually mistreated by people of another race, but because they feel troubled or uneasy about life in general and are drawn to the idea that they can blame one specific group for their problems. So this was a lazy and careless choice to explain what motivated Erica. As an attempt to give her nuance and sympathetic qualities, it's a misfire and it's too little, too late.

And speaking of unsympathetic characters, Matt really turned out awful, didn't he? Sure, he was a morally compromised character in the original show, wrestling with right and wrong, but I'd expected that his arc here would end with some kind of remorse and redemption for being led astray. But he pretty much went full villain here, complete with karmic comeuppance. I mean, he threatened to murder a pregnant woman. That's a moral event horizon right there. It's an odd choice to take a formerly well-liked protagonist and turn him so bad.

Luke's plan to draw Tommy's attention was pretty terrible. Knowing that you're being hunted by people who will try to kill you, go to a crowded place with plenty of innocent bystanders who will be in the line of fire when you deliberately let everyone know where you are? Not to mention that it wouldn't have worked at all without Micah. (Although I don't buy that Micah's technopathy would've let him clear up the interference from the solar storm. That's an issue of the external environment, not the technology itself. Maybe his powers could let him prevent or redirect power surges in the circuits, but he couldn't do anything about interference with RF signals passing through the air.) Also, the final confrontation between Luke and Joanne was rather cursory.

It had its moments, though. Most cheesy-but-fun line: "You know the Master of Time and Space?" "Dude -- I'm dating him!"

 

[DWF]

At this point nothing Erica does could gain her any sympathy, her actions still make little sense for all of her hated of EVOs she's still willing to use them to recreate the human race in the future. I was surprised when Luke killed Jo though. And to think the trophy case with Claire's picture in it was where Claire met Pete back in the first season.

 

[Morpheus 02]

What in the world are you talking about? "Desperate wishes?" It's called criticism. It's the main purpose this discussion forum even exists -- so that we can express our opinions, questions, and criticisms of what we see on TV shows and movies. I'm hardly the only TrekBBS member who has ever voiced a negative opinion about something from a TV episode or suggested a way it could've been done better. I'm certainly not the first person in this thread to have complained that something in a Heroes Reborn episode was implausible or badly done.

You know we love criticisms & differing opinions...but you're doubling down and really dismissing the rest of us who have given some pretty good reasons why we could be right. I think it'd be fair to say most of understand & even appreciate your point. We'd probably love a work which features your solution to what you feel is an ongoing sci-fi trope problem. But int his particular case, it's not a big deal. See below for an explanation.

You don't need evidence for something that's simple common sense. I've tried to explain this. Getting a bullet fired into a part of your body does much less damage than having that part of your body completely disintegrated. Yes? Doesn't that logically follow? So it stands to reason that if you have the power to restore your body from being completely disintegrated, then it should be easy to restore your body from being only slightly damaged. It's as simple as concluding that 100-2 is a larger number than 100-100. Even if it isn't portrayed that way in fiction, it should be, because it simply makes sense. My problem with a lot of shapeshifter portrayals in fiction, not just this one, is that they fail to recognize the contradiction of a shapeshifter being unable to heal an injury.

The thing is -- there a couple of things you're not thinking about.

1) The body disintegrating is reassembling itself exactly how it was before the turning into mist. Also HE is choosing to break apart. Apparently, his "mental force" is the "glue" to keep it from spreading apart.

2) This particular power is the kind that needs active mental use (not reactive like healing). It might have first been discovered as instinctive (i.e. he saw something, and then made him turn into the mist). As I thought I mentioned earlier..when I had sever acid reflux, I could absolutely not move. I couldn't even walk, let alone do something that needed concentration, like driving. Not just turning to mist, but doing so with the intention of returning your body to how it was before you were shot, would not necessarily be high on your mind. The intense pain of being shot in chest would be just a tad distracting, no?

3) The priest seems to have been pretty much alone in developing his power. If he had Micah, or Cisco (from Flash) or yourself as a friend/partner/advisor.. then sure, he would not have had an excuse to not somehow try something dangerous like that. (i.e. what if he rearranges himself wrong? He could hurt himself by rearranging things the wrong way. How does one make sure that EVERY ONE of your tiny cells get rearranged in the right spot.

4) Ask the average non sci-fi geek --if you had this power, would you even THINK about it being a healing power? And if so, would you even consider doing a Clair Bennet, and do something painful and potentially lethal to see if you could heal yourself? Would the priest, presumably a man of peace, have reason to try it out? Being Catholic, he might take the suicide ban to an extra level, where self-harm is also out of the question (for him).


Also, in regards to shapeshifters...it would depend on what kind of shapeshifting. Are they Odo type of shape shifters? Or just changing the outside... like the one on the Flash. It seems like he could only change the OUTSIDE. His brain, and most innards, stayed the same. So certainly if he were shot, he might not be able to fix himself. In the Flash's enemy's case, he couldn't even restore the face he had for most of his life -- I doubt he could restore the insides.

Even if it was Odo-type... you seem to be assuming that if some cells are seriously damaged, that the rest of the cells won't feel it. If the cells can rearrange everything through some nervous system, would it not also share the pain with the whole body as well?




So.... do I not have some valid points here?

 

[Snaploud]

Tommy should have frozen time immediately after arriving at the High School. It's disappointing when the story depends upon the characters making stupid decisions, but I suppose it's somewhat justified given that he's still relearning his powers. Plus, it's always a bit tricky having a "Master of Time and Space' and still maintain the slightest amount of drama.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Tommy sent this thread back to last week.

 

[Morpheus 02]

By the way ...I am very sorry the series got cancelled again. A couple of major problems, in my opinion:

1) They made a huge scheduling mistake. A year ago, they advertised this as a summer series. They should have kept that, and went straight thru. Having a whole month interrupting the show was a huge mistake.

2) They missed some cross-promoting. Heroes is perfect for some SyFy marathons. While the ratings might not have been huge, it would have created a lot of free social media buzz.

3) They barely used Micah. He was a good actor back in the day, and he has grown to look like a leading man. On the CW, he'd automatically be the lead.


On the plus, I think they used the right characters. I know many of them are "too big" to return...but also many of their stories have played out. Like Sylar... Zahary Quinto was phenomenal in the role, and I am sure was his "screen test" to show he is the perfect actor to take over Spock. But his character? Umm... He should've been defeated.


I am sorry it didn't go another season -- still lots of potential.

 

[Christopher]

You know we love criticisms & differing opinions...but you're doubling down and really dismissing the rest of us who have given some pretty good reasons why we could be right.

Only because I'm being misunderstood. Go back through my comments and you'll see I've already addressed the points that people keep restating even after I've addressed them. It's very frustrating. I made what I thought was a simple, clear point and people keep mistaking what I mean.

The thing is -- there a couple of things you're not thinking about.

1) The body disintegrating is reassembling itself exactly how it was before the turning into mist.

Oh, come on, this is just insulting now. Not only did I already acknowledge this possibility last week, but I was the first person to suggest it! In my very first post on the subject seven days ago, I said the following:

Well... unless maybe he involuntarily took anything on his person with him when he transformed and then just automatically reconstituted in his former state. In that case, if he had dissolved and reassembled, he wouldn't have left the bullet behind but would've dissolved and reassembled it with him in exactly the same configuration as before -- like being beamed by a transporter. But if that were the case, it would've helped to establish that somehow, so that his death scene would make sense.

And I went on to repeat my awareness of that possibility two days later after The Old Mixer -- who apparently missed the part where I had already proposed that idea -- suggested it to me. So this thing you claim I'm "not thinking about" is something I've already acknowledged as a possibility at least twice and that I was the first person to propose at all.

As I said way back at the start of this ridiculous argument, it's not that I couldn't see a way to explain it. Of course I could, and did, think of a way to explain it -- that's my job. I'm a professional maker up of stuff. But that's exactly why I'm critical of these writers' failure to include such an explanation -- because I know how I would have done it and I think that it needed more setup to justify the payoff.

 

[sojourner]

Yep, everyone else is wrong. Clearly.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I seem to be in the minority, but I'm sad to see the show cancelled (though not surprised). But at least it will make a nice companion to the season one DVD set on my shelf, the only season of the original series that I own.

 

[Gryffindorian]

I think part of the problem, as I mentioned earlier, is the lack of strong, likeable characters on this show. The villains way outnumber the good guys. I haven't seen Noah Bennett in the last couple of episodes. Matt Porkman is evil. Hiro made only a few appearances (apparently, they couldn't get most of the original cast members). It doesn't have the appeal of the original Heroes, at least the first few seasons.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I wouldn't have minded seeing it continue, but given how littered the TV landscape is becoming with super-hero shows, I'm not likely to miss it.

 

[kitik]

I wouldn't have minded seeing it continue, but given how littered the TV landscape is becoming with super-hero shows, I'm not likely to miss it.

That sounds about right. I wouldn't mind seeing it come back as a limited series again in 3 or 4 years. If they have a story to tell.

But I won't miss it. Not only do we have more than enough other super hero shows, but we have lots of GOOD super hero shows.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I wonder if they had anything in mind for Pete if the show had continued, either for a potential appearance or as an offscreen plot device a la Claire this season. Given that he was such a major character in the previous series, they've been conspicuously mum about his current whereabouts.

 

[DWF]

It's a shame it was picked up, but then I thought this was only a one time thing. Still though I rather liked the old and new characters were woven together.