Heroes Reborn - Season 1 Discussion Thread (with Spoilers)

[Christopher]

He was unexpectedly shot while solid, and that killed him real good.

But if he can voluntarily take himself apart and put himself back together -- if he has that much control over his own molecular structure -- why can't he just reassemble himself intact?

(I have the same problem with Star Trek. By all rights, the transporter should eliminate the need for sickbay. Just edit an injured person's transporter pattern to make them healthy again!)

 

[The Old Mixer]

It's too bad that you weren't there to coach him in the use of his powers while he was busy dying from a mortal wound. It's possible that his situation (sudden bodily trauma, seconds to live) might have slightly impaired the use of his powers.

To throw in some MMORPG logic, it's also possible that his power has a cooldown, and having just changed back he couldn't have used it immediately even if he hadn't been wounded.

It's pretty standard for characters with on-and-off powers to be as vulnerable as normal humans when their powers aren't actively switched on to protect them. It's also not uncommon for such powers to exact a toll on the user that doesn't always allow them to be used on demand.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

It's the same reason he was captured to begin with. It's a conscious effort to convert from one form to the other, and absolutely nothing on screen even remotely suggested that transforming healed him in any way.

 

[Christopher]

It's pretty standard for characters with on-and-off powers to be as vulnerable as normal humans when their powers aren't actively switched on to protect them.

Yes, and I'm annoyed when tropes that don't make sense are standard. "It's the way things are done" does not make something right.

There are plenty of powers where what you say makes sense. But for this particular power, which requires an incredibly thorough conscious control over every particle in one's body (not to mention one's clothes, jewelry, etc.), it's contradictory and illogical to ignore the potential application of that power for instant healing. It's a failure of imagination on the writers' part. If they wanted him to be that vulnerable, they shouldn't have given him such an amazingly powerful ability to begin with. If you decide to write a character who's such a high-level shapeshifter, and you then want to kill him, you should come up with something less elementary than just shooting him. Shooting him shouldn't harm him any more than shooting Sandman or Hydro-Man or Odo or the T-1000.

 

[urbandefault]

I just watched the first half hour of the first episode. I hope it gets better. :/

 

[sojourner]

It's pretty standard for characters with on-and-off powers to be as vulnerable as normal humans when their powers aren't actively switched on to protect them.

Yes, and I'm annoyed when tropes that don't make sense are standard. "It's the way things are done" does not make something right.

There are plenty of powers where what you say makes sense. But for this particular power, which requires an incredibly thorough conscious control over every particle in one's body (not to mention one's clothes, jewelry, etc.), it's contradictory and illogical to ignore the potential application of that power for instant healing. It's a failure of imagination on the writers' part. If they wanted him to be that vulnerable, they shouldn't have given him such an amazingly powerful ability to begin with. If you decide to write a character who's such a high-level shapeshifter, and you then want to kill him, you should come up with something less elementary than just shooting him. Shooting him shouldn't harm him any more than shooting Sandman or Hydro-Man or Odo or the T-1000.

You're making a lot of assumptions about the priest's power there.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^Indeed. It could be that he simply couldn't do anything but change himself to gas, and when he changed back it was automatically to whatever his state was before he changed to gas. By the same token, you could ask why Trek transporters don't heal wounded crewmen that they're beaming up.

"It's the way things are done" does not make something right.

And giving a super-powered character reasonable limits rather than catering to minmax fantasies isn't necessarily wrong.

 

[Christopher]

And giving a super-powered character reasonable limits rather than catering to minmax fantasies isn't necessarily wrong.

Reasonability is exactly the problem. The writers never specifically established what limitations the priest's power might have. They didn't provide enough setup to justify the payoff. I resent the phrase "minmax fantasies." Unreasonable extremes are exactly what I don't approve of. I'm just applying logic to what I'm shown. If you think about it, shapeshifting logically implies extreme control over bodily structure. Closing up a hole in a wounded body part is a much, much simpler and less drastic transformation than changing an arm into a wing or skin into clothing or an entire body into water or dust or sand or mist. Therefore, it simply stands to reason that if you have the power to shapeshift at all, the logical consequence of that is that healing yourself should be easy. Especially if we're talking about full-on self-disintegration. For most people, being entirely disintegrated on a particle level would be the most irreversibly fatal thing imaginable. So if you can survive that, then being shot should logically be trivial in comparison. Shapeshifters with self-disintegration ability should be all but indestructible, and that's usually how they're portrayed in fiction. The T-1000 could only be killed by extreme heat. A Dominion Founder could only be killed by a high-powered energy weapon or by disease. Sandman can even survive being melted or turned to glass as long as the single speck of sand housing his consciousness survives. Hydro-Man can be completely evaporated and yet still reconstitute later.

So if a writer wants to posit that a self-disintegrator character cannot easily heal, it is incumbent on them to explain that inconsistency -- as, for instance, with the idea you and I both proposed that perhaps he instinctively/reflexively reverted to whatever his physical state was before transformation. (Evidently you didn't read my post from yesterday and didn't realize you were proposing things to me that I already proposed myself.) But no such explanation was offered. It was merely tossed in arbitrarily, like everything else about how the powers work in this lazily conceived franchise.

So there's no "minmax fantasy" here, merely logical analysis. Good grief, controlled self-disintegration is probably the most "minmax" ability there is to begin with, short of turning yourself completely into energy like Livewire or the Living Laser. It's one of my least favorite superpowers because it's so utterly nonsensical and effectively magical. So if you're going to give a character that kind of power, then they should be portrayed as astonishingly powerful and nigh-indestructible, like the T-1000 or Sandman. Giving the priest such a high-grade ability and portraying him as vulnerable at the same time was an inconsistency they should have justified, but did not.

 

[sojourner]

You're still making assumptions on the level of control. The priest may have no more control over the transformation than thinking "on/off". Why is it so hard to imagine that whatever form his body is in before he turns to smoke is the same form it takes after? What have we seen of his use of his powers that leads you to assume he has any fine control over the change?

You're bringing in preconceived notions from other fictional characters and applying them here.

 

[The Old Mixer]

They showed us his limits...he couldn't do what you imagine he could, Christopher, or he would have done it. I don't think that his being able to die while solid just like anyone else was a "payoff" that required any particular setup...it's just common sense.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Or he took this opportunity to be with Jesus.

If suicide got you to heaven, and not the other place, most priests would jump off bridges and stuff the moment earth started to suck.

Seriously, particulate for a couple seconds and maybe you'll come back without the gaping hole you dunce!

There were some Hulk comics where Banner was shot in the face mid transformation, so there's a bullet in the Hulks brain, which he hardly notices, that they can't get out, but will kill both of them the moment he changed back to Banner.

 

[Morpheus 02]

And giving a super-powered character reasonable limits rather than catering to minmax fantasies isn't necessarily wrong.

Reasonability is exactly the problem. The writers never specifically established what limitations the priest's power might have. They didn't provide enough setup to justify the payoff. I resent the phrase "minmax fantasies." Unreasonable extremes are exactly what I don't approve of. I'm just applying logic to what I'm shown. If you think about it, shapeshifting logically implies extreme control over bodily structure. Closing up a hole in a wounded body part is a much, much simpler and less drastic transformation than changing an arm into a wing or skin into clothing or an entire body into water or dust or sand or mist. Therefore, it simply stands to reason that if you have the power to shapeshift at all, the logical consequence of that is that healing yourself should be easy. Especially if we're talking about full-on self-disintegration. For most people, being entirely disintegrated on a particle level would be the most irreversibly fatal thing imaginable. So if you can survive that, then being shot should logically be trivial in comparison. Shapeshifters with self-disintegration ability should be all but indestructible, and that's usually how they're portrayed in fiction. The T-1000 could only be killed by extreme heat. A Dominion Founder could only be killed by a high-powered energy weapon or by disease. Sandman can even survive being melted or turned to glass as long as the single speck of sand housing his consciousness survives. Hydro-Man can be completely evaporated and yet still reconstitute later.

So if a writer wants to posit that a self-disintegrator character cannot easily heal, it is incumbent on them to explain that inconsistency -- as, for instance, with the idea you and I both proposed that perhaps he instinctively/reflexively reverted to whatever his physical state was before transformation. (Evidently you didn't read my post from yesterday and didn't realize you were proposing things to me that I already proposed myself.) But no such explanation was offered. It was merely tossed in arbitrarily, like everything else about how the powers work in this lazily conceived franchise.

So there's no "minmax fantasy" here, merely logical analysis. Good grief, controlled self-disintegration is probably the most "minmax" ability there is to begin with, short of turning yourself completely into energy like Livewire or the Living Laser. It's one of my least favorite superpowers because it's so utterly nonsensical and effectively magical. So if you're going to give a character that kind of power, then they should be portrayed as astonishingly powerful and nigh-indestructible, like the T-1000 or Sandman. Giving the priest such a high-grade ability and portraying him as vulnerable at the same time was an inconsistency they should have justified, but did not.

I agree with everyone...you are making a LOT of assumptions.

As a sci-fi writer, if you had that power, you might assume you have the healing ability.

But the priest might NOT have been so scientifically inclined.

Also, he probably did not have much opportunity to learn the aspects of his ability (I.e. he probably hadn't got shot yet in his job; also he was apparently pretty underground, so he hadn't been with many knowledgable people who could help him push his power.)

Also, if it takes brain power to use one's power, being


I had severe acid reflux, requiring a hospital visit. I could NOT do a thing. I would imagine that would be MORESO with a gunshot wound.

When one is in severe shock like that, it's not like people are thinking rationally, such as considering healing themselves in a way they've never done before.


Also, is there any idea how long the priest had this power? We know that for the past year, evos have been sent underground...so it's not like there's a community college nearby teaching "How to Explore your powers"..and even online courses & forums would be scanned by the government...so not safe to connect

But , I suppose you've got yourself a novel idea....

 

[Christopher]

They showed us his limits...he couldn't do what you imagine he could, Christopher, or he would have done it.

Oh, come on, do we have to go through this circle yet again? I know what they asserted, obviously. What I'm saying is that I disagree with their choice to portray it that way -- and not only their choice, because other creators of fiction have included this same paradox without apparently thinking it through (for instance, Mystique in the second X-Men movie has scars from where Wolverine stabbed her in the first one, and they somehow stay a part of her body even when she changes everything else about her physical structure).

And no, they never showed us his limits, because they never showed him being injured before. All they showed was that he could turn to powder and back again.

I don't think that his being able to die while solid just like anyone else was a "payoff" that required any particular setup...it's just common sense.

No, it's the exact opposite of common sense! Again: Transforming an injured body part into an intact body part is a far, far less extreme transformation than turning your entire body into dust or vapor and then putting it back together again. Saying that someone who can control every last molecule of their entire body is unable to heal a minor wound is a contradiction in terms. Yes, it is what they asserted, it is what some other works of fiction have asserted about their shapeshifting characters, but it is utterly stupid.

I'm astonished we're even having this conversation. Nothing about Heroes has ever made sense, or ever tried to make sense. The entire franchise has been monumentally silly from the word go. This is a universe where the Earth is apparently flat because a solar eclipse can be seen everywhere on Earth at the same time. Once you've crossed that Rubicon of kindergarten-flunking idiocy, there is no going back. So I'm amazed that anyone would make the effort to defend anything in this franchise as believable.

 

[sojourner]

Stop making assumptions and stating them as fact.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I'm just not seeing how being able to change your body into one specific thing equates to being able to put your body back together any way you want. It may have been plenty for him to learn to control his power well enough to turn it on and off at will. His power had limits...that's all there is to it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Autonomic functions.

You can't tell your heart how to pump to a reggae beat.

Either his body would put itself back together again at the last usable save point, exactly as it was when it was injured, or his body would put itself back together again in a new unseen before working/survivable state.

 

[sojourner]

marking territory

 

[Christopher]

I'm just not seeing how being able to change your body into one specific thing equates to being able to put your body back together any way you want.

If it were something like, say, changing into a wolf or changing his skin into metal or changing to look like other people, then I might well agree with you. But this is not the same as those. Think about the specific nature of this particular (and particulate) type of transformation. He can completely disintegrate his entire body into separate particles -- including his brain -- and yet rather than just ceasing to exist entirely, he somehow retains his consciousness and is able to put those particles back together again in the semblance of a human body wearing clothing and jewelry. The only way that's possible is if his entire nature as an organism has transformed so fundamentally that his consciousness is basically incorporeal and does not need to be housed inside a flesh substrate to function. For that very specific type of transformation, the kind involving the complete dissolution of physical form, I just can't accept the premise that he's an ordinary human with a little something extra added. He's become something deeply unlike an ordinary human, or else disintegrating his body and brain would simply kill him. If his consciousness can survive without an intact body at all, then it just doesn't follow that an injury to that body would lead to the cessation of his consciousness.

 

[sojourner]

Well, that's a moved goal post.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Hmm. No sign of Noah. I wonder if this is the first episode of Heroes overall where he didn't appear-- it's certainly the only episode of Heroes Reborn.

As for the priest, we actually know for a fact that his power does not reset him to a previous state, otherwise he'd always be wearing the same clothes that he was when he first used it. And there's no reason to think that using that power requires any more concentration than walking-- and walking is certainly more difficult after you've been shot in the chest. If he had that fine a level of control, he could do a lot more than turn to dust-- he could turn into anyone or anything. Even at that, he'd need to have the knowledge of a heart surgeon to repair his wound.