CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

[Campe]

I really wish CBS had issued some official guidelines for these productions as it would have eliminated this. But then again, I don't think CBS ever envisioned a production crowdfunding over a million dollars.

My biggest concern is that crap rolls downhill, and it could sweep up other productions that HAVE BEEN playing by the rules. Ultimately Peters' Folly could be the death knell of a very creative outlet for fans, which would be a shame.

The problem is: The moment CBS issues guidelines, they validate the project. I don't believe they can do that.

 

[SuperSpaceMan]

All right - but when, exactly, did someone in authority at CBS actually say explicitly to anyone "as long as you don't make a profit?"

It's been suggested this is what New Voyages were told.

Exactly. It's been suggested, secondhand, that someone at some point was told this and it's been inferred that there's some bright red line officially drawn here by someone at CBS in a decision-making capacity about such things. If this was said, who said it? What was their job at CBS? Who was it said to? When and where was it said? What was the exact wording?

Alec Peters claimed back around August, in his elliptical and vague way, to have had some reassuring discussions with "people from CBS" about his project - and when given the opportunity to comment, CBS representatives shot that down in no uncertain terms.

From what I have read here.. read from things put out by the fan films themselves, and corroborated by CBS's lack of involvement up until now, I see two overriding principles, CBS has for fan films. They can't take credit fort the property, AND they can't make money.

There were those rules Patty posted in the "Rules of engagement" thread, that she said she got from Maureen at CBS... Still hearsay, but it seems like those are pretty reasonable rules. The problem is when people start stretching them... like making copyright off of dereivite works (ala USS Ares) or making a salary off of making unlicensed trek....

 

[Campe]

As for the money issue:

CBS has not authorized, sanctioned or licensed this project in any way, and this has been communicated to those involved. We continue to object to professional commercial ventures trading off our property rights and are considering further options to protect these rights.

Do they say they can't make money off of it? Not so exactly, but they do object to commercial ventures, which Axanar clearly is. And a commercial venture, at least as I understand it, is one that brings in money.

 

[SuperSpaceMan]

All right - but when, exactly, did someone in authority at CBS actually say explicitly to anyone "as long as you don't make a profit?"

Agreed. I really wish CBS had issued some official guidelines for these productions as it would have eliminated this. But then again, I don't think CBS ever envisioned a production crowdfunding over a million dollars.

My biggest concern is that crap rolls downhill, and it could sweep up other productions that HAVE BEEN playing by the rules. Ultimately Peters' Folly could be the death knell of a very creative outlet for fans, which would be a shame.

But it is fair to ask CBS and Paramount why they allowed Axanar to dig itself into this deep of a whole before acting. I have yet to find a credible explanation for why they didn't put a stop to Peters the minute he announced Ares Studios.

Since the property rights, are broken down into two entities, have something to play with how long they came together to file this suit?

One of Abram's and ORicis biggest challenges with Trek have been navigating the waters between the two organizations.... So imagine what pulling together a lawsuit might be like? I mean it sounds like they were exploring their options back in August.... could it simply have taken them this long?

 

[Jedi_Master]

But it is fair to ask CBS and Paramount why they allowed Axanar to dig itself into this deep of a whole before acting. I have yet to find a credible explanation for why they didn't put a stop to Peters the minute he announced Ares Studios.

You don't use a sledgehammer on a flea. Big studios have budgets too, and they have to balance the cost of legal fees (even if they have attorneys on retainer there are additional costs for filings, trials, etc.) with the potential threat of the copyright infringement.
At some point Axanar's flagrant behavior crossed a line and some manager was able to justify the cost to his/her boss.
Keep in mind that CBS/Paramount will undoubtedly want the defendants to pay the legal fees, but if the defendant goes bankrupt, those fees may be hard to recover, and most firms want their clients to pay the fees, and then they refund them after they recover from the defendant.

So the CBS legal department had to justify the up front cost.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

It's been suggested this is what New Voyages were told.

Exactly. It's been suggested, secondhand, that someone at some point was told this and it's been inferred that there's some bright red line officially drawn here by someone at CBS in a decision-making capacity about such things. If this was said, who said it? What was their job at CBS? Who was it said to? When and where was it said? What was the exact wording?

Alec Peters claimed back around August, in his elliptical and vague way, to have had some reassuring discussions with "people from CBS" about his project - and when given the opportunity to comment, CBS representatives shot that down in no uncertain terms.

From what I have read here.. read from things put out by the fan films themselves, and corroborated by CBS's lack of involvement up until now, I see two overriding principles, CBS has for fan films. They can't take credit fort the property, AND they can't make money.

There were those rules Patty posted in the "Rules of engagement" thread, that she said she got from Maureen at CBS... Still hearsay, but it seems like those are pretty reasonable rules. The problem is when people start stretching them... like making copyright off of dereivite works (ala USS Ares) or making a salary off of making unlicensed trek....

I think one of the biggest problems with Axanar is the professional angle.

You know, for all the debates about specific legalities, sometimes in law you have to take a look at the bigger picture. Did it look professional? Yes. Were the production values of a high standard in all areas? Yes. Was it going to be made out of a professional studio? Yes. Is it made by professionals? Yes. Does it use the IP substantially? Yes. And so on. It's cleary gone beyond a fan film.

For all the talk of non-profit status and so on, sometimes the question is as simple as, does it walk like a duck and talk like a duck?

 

[Professor Moriarty]

Look, if Axanar is permitted to do this it won't be the epitome of unlicensed Star Trek crowdfunding for very long - it will only be the beginning. If CBS permits it in this instance, why wouldn't Star Trek Continues, or New Voyages, or Farragut pull out all the stops? Letting Axanar proceed would amount to tacit permission from CBS to do just that, and CBS clearly understand that.

EXACTLY. That's why all of this wishful thinking that CBS and Peters will somehow come to terms and find a way for Axanar to proceed is just that--wishful thinking.

 

[Smoked Salmon]

But it is fair to ask CBS and Paramount why they allowed Axanar to dig itself into this deep of a whole before acting. I have yet to find a credible explanation for why they didn't put a stop to Peters the minute he announced Ares Studios.

You don't use a sledgehammer on a flea. Big studios have budgets too, and they have to balance the cost of legal fees (even if they have attorneys on retainer there are additional costs for filings, trials, etc.) with the potential threat of the copyright infringement.
At some point Axanar's flagrant behavior crossed a line and some manager was able to justify the cost to his/her boss.
Keep in mind that CBS/Paramount will undoubtedly want the defendants to pay the legal fees, but if the defendant goes bankrupt, those fees may be hard to recover, and most firms want their clients to pay the fees, and then they refund them after they recover from the defendant.

So the CBS legal department had to justify the up front cost.

There is no up front cost. Litigation costs are fluid by the very nature of the work.

 

[oswriter]

Agreed. I really wish CBS had issued some official guidelines for these productions as it would have eliminated this. But then again, I don't think CBS ever envisioned a production crowdfunding over a million dollars.

My biggest concern is that crap rolls downhill, and it could sweep up other productions that HAVE BEEN playing by the rules. Ultimately Peters' Folly could be the death knell of a very creative outlet for fans, which would be a shame.

But it is fair to ask CBS and Paramount why they allowed Axanar to dig itself into this deep of a whole before acting. I have yet to find a credible explanation for why they didn't put a stop to Peters the minute he announced Ares Studios.

Since the property rights, are broken down into two entities, have something to play with how long they came together to file this suit?

One of Abram's and ORicis biggest challenges with Trek have been navigating the waters between the two organizations.... So imagine what pulling together a lawsuit might be like? I mean it sounds like they were exploring their options back in August.... could it simply have taken them this long?

Yeah, I don't buy this. The relevant copyrights are all assigned to CBS Studios, Inc. These were expressly violated the moment Peters published Prelude. They didn't need Paramount's cooperation or approval.

 

[The Transformed Man]

So who is the lessor, that might be interesting to know. Do they have any ties to anyone on the production staff? That could cause a legal problem.

The studio is a 15,000 square foot warehouse located at 28757 Industry Drive, Valencia, California 91355. You cannot get ownership information through online sources. Anyone want to take a field trip to the Los Angeles County's Assessor's office?

I disagree...

Owned by INDUSTRY DRIVE LLC.

Appears Idustry Drive LLC is a single purpose entity that reistered with the State of California in April 2015. It appears Remo Belli, owner of Remo Drums in Valencia CA owns Industry Drive LLC.

 

[oswriter]

Exactly. It's been suggested, secondhand, that someone at some point was told this and it's been inferred that there's some bright red line officially drawn here by someone at CBS in a decision-making capacity about such things. If this was said, who said it? What was their job at CBS? Who was it said to? When and where was it said? What was the exact wording?

Alec Peters claimed back around August, in his elliptical and vague way, to have had some reassuring discussions with "people from CBS" about his project - and when given the opportunity to comment, CBS representatives shot that down in no uncertain terms.

From what I have read here.. read from things put out by the fan films themselves, and corroborated by CBS's lack of involvement up until now, I see two overriding principles, CBS has for fan films. They can't take credit fort the property, AND they can't make money.

There were those rules Patty posted in the "Rules of engagement" thread, that she said she got from Maureen at CBS... Still hearsay, but it seems like those are pretty reasonable rules. The problem is when people start stretching them... like making copyright off of dereivite works (ala USS Ares) or making a salary off of making unlicensed trek....

I think one of the biggest problems with Axanar is the professional angle.

You know, for all the debates about specific legalities, sometimes in law you have to take a look at the bigger picture. Did it look professional? Yes. Were the production values of a high standard in all areas? Yes. Was it going to be made out of a professional studio? Yes. Is it made by professionals? Yes. Does it use the IP substantially? Yes. And so on. It's cleary gone beyond a fan film.

For all the talk of non-profit status and so on, sometimes the question is as simple as, does it walk like a duck and talk like a duck?

To simplify it further: They built a studio within the "Thirty Mile Zone" that encompasses the professional entertainment industry.

 

[oswriter]

The studio is a 15,000 square foot warehouse located at 28757 Industry Drive, Valencia, California 91355. You cannot get ownership information through online sources. Anyone want to take a field trip to the Los Angeles County's Assessor's office?

I disagree...

Owned by INDUSTRY DRIVE LLC.

Appears Idustry Drive LLC (full name is 28101 Industry Drive LLC) is a single purpose entity founded that reistered with the State of California in April 2015. It appears Remo Belli, owner of Remo Drums in Valencia CA owns Industry Drive LLC.

Ah, many thanks for that. I confess it's been awhile since I've gone digging through California land records.

 

[SuperSpaceMan]

Exactly. It's been suggested, secondhand, that someone at some point was told this and it's been inferred that there's some bright red line officially drawn here by someone at CBS in a decision-making capacity about such things. If this was said, who said it? What was their job at CBS? Who was it said to? When and where was it said? What was the exact wording?

Alec Peters claimed back around August, in his elliptical and vague way, to have had some reassuring discussions with "people from CBS" about his project - and when given the opportunity to comment, CBS representatives shot that down in no uncertain terms.

From what I have read here.. read from things put out by the fan films themselves, and corroborated by CBS's lack of involvement up until now, I see two overriding principles, CBS has for fan films. They can't take credit fort the property, AND they can't make money.

There were those rules Patty posted in the "Rules of engagement" thread, that she said she got from Maureen at CBS... Still hearsay, but it seems like those are pretty reasonable rules. The problem is when people start stretching them... like making copyright off of dereivite works (ala USS Ares) or making a salary off of making unlicensed trek....

I think one of the biggest problems with Axanar is the professional angle.

You know, for all the debates about specific legalities, sometimes in law you have to take a look at the bigger picture. Did it look professional? Yes. Were the production values of a high standard in all areas? Yes. Was it going to be made out of a professional studio? Yes. Is it made by professionals? Yes. Does it use the IP substantially? Yes. And so on. It's cleary gone beyond a fan film.

For all the talk of non-profit status and so on, sometimes the question is as simple as, does it walk like a duck and talk like a duck?

Yea, It could be all of it, it could be none of it... I just think the biggest objection the Axanar fans have to the action is, why Axanar, and why now... so trying to understand that, is in my opinion helpful to decrease their but hurt.... because I really do want the CBS and paramount productions to be successful, as they carry on the legacy of the brand.

 

[oswriter]

But it is fair to ask CBS and Paramount why they allowed Axanar to dig itself into this deep of a whole before acting. I have yet to find a credible explanation for why they didn't put a stop to Peters the minute he announced Ares Studios.

You don't use a sledgehammer on a flea. Big studios have budgets too, and they have to balance the cost of legal fees (even if they have attorneys on retainer there are additional costs for filings, trials, etc.) with the potential threat of the copyright infringement.
At some point Axanar's flagrant behavior crossed a line and some manager was able to justify the cost to his/her boss.
Keep in mind that CBS/Paramount will undoubtedly want the defendants to pay the legal fees, but if the defendant goes bankrupt, those fees may be hard to recover, and most firms want their clients to pay the fees, and then they refund them after they recover from the defendant.

So the CBS legal department had to justify the up front cost.

The problem with that line of reasoning is that by waiting until after Peters' raised his $1 million, you've now hit him when he's backed into a corner and is more likely to fight until the bitter end.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I disagree...

Owned by INDUSTRY DRIVE LLC.

Appears Idustry Drive LLC (full name is 28101 Industry Drive LLC) is a single purpose entity founded that reistered with the State of California in April 2015. It appears Remo Belli, owner of Remo Drums in Valencia CA owns Industry Drive LLC.

Ah, many thanks for that. I confess it's been awhile since I've gone digging through California land records.

Actually, I just googled the address and this is what came up

 

[Jedi_Master]

There is no up front cost. Litigation costs are fluid by the very nature of the work.

The non-profit I manage sure as hell has to pay our attorneys up front for litigation.

Sure we get it back - eventually - but that depends on eventual recovery. There have been more than few cases where owners ducked into bankruptcy or for other reasons never met their obligation to the Association, and we ate the legal costs.

oswriter - CBS will win this, no matter what. The evidence is clear and unequivocal. In my opinion, they just had to justify the cost of litigation and compare that to the cost of ignoring Axanar.

 

[The Transformed Man]

This is kind of amusing. Check out the pic from Loopnet about the listing of the property on Industry Drive:

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/18998331/28757-Industry-Drive-Valencia-CA/

Now check out the pic of "Ares Studios" on their page... something awfully familiar about that pic....

http://www.axanarproductions.com/category/ares-studio/

Jesus... they just can't help ripping off other people's work.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Who remembers the uproar when Bob Orci told someone to "fuck off"?

 

[BillJ]

Who remembers the uproar when Bob Orci told someone to "fuck off"?

This is different. The Axanar people are the true keepers of Roddenberry's vision!

 

[Karzak]

All CBS has to do is tell the court that no production - TV show or film, high budget or low, wastes time remodeling a production office if their goal is to make a film.

You come in, you set up your gear, you rehearse, you shoot, you clear out. Post is usually done elsewhere.

Peters is just uninformed enough about the usual operation of legitimate Hollywood productions that he is shooting himself in the dick here. How much did Ares Studios spend 'redoing the floors' again? And why?

Well to be fair STNV and STC have studios that they continue to build up. But then again, they are an ongoing series. I suppose Alec may have wanted to make Axanar follow up films and or a ongoing series as well. So on this issue, really cant cite him for wanting to build up his own studio. Its just a part about using the fans money to do that, and of course, announcing that it will be a 'for profit' studio .

But neither New Voyages or Continues made plain their plans to continue onward after their respective productions to open a for-profit filmmaking education program (which at this point is a laugh, given how inept Peters and Burnett have accorded themselves) or to use the infrastructure they've built further for making for-profit films and other projects on the backs of donor money.

New Voyages came close with their Buck Rogers Begins a few years ago, but even they made sure to get the rights for the project first. And that project is now in fan film development hell, if it isn't just plain dead.

Peters has spent the better part of the past four years bloviating about Axanar and how great it was going to be and what his new media empire was going to accomplish, and he violated the first rule of espionage -- "Nothing on paper."

All of his claims, his rants, his attacks and his promises are etched forever on internet servers from Blastr to io9 to TrekBBS to Axanar's own website and all over Facebook. There's no way he's going to be able to backpedal any of it.