Snoke - speculation (spoilers)

[Ithekro]

The Rule of Two was only a thousand years old. The Jedi has mostly thought they had killed the Sith centuries ago, but managed to miss one of them each time it would seem.

Prior to Darth Bane, a thousand years ago, there were lots of Sith Lords, and they managed to backstab each other too much so that the Jedi were able to defeat them.

Also we know the Sith cheat their own rules by having Dark Siders that work for them, but are not trained as Sith. There are only two Sith Lords, but they tend to take on some underlings while they are at it. Also it seems to be common for the Sith Apprentice to have a "secret" apprentice of there own that they are potentially grooming to be the next Sith Lord, after they do away with their Master.

For a short time I think the Jedi thought that the two Sith Lords were Dooku and Ventress. But I could be wrong about that.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I think it's always important to consider the rule of two with the fact that it was created to prevent backstabbing. Given that, it's not shocking that it's a rule frequently broken in order to backstab someone. Even judging by the movies, Darth Vader (both as Anakin and Episode 3 and in his traditional appearance in 5) offered someone to join him to rule together (instead of with Palpatine).

 

[Sean_McCormick]

In TFA soundtack, a title named SNOKE re-uses the same choral theme used in RotS when Palpatine is telling Anakin of Plaguis's and his attempts to preserve life with the Force.

Before TFA, it seemed to me that same choral theme during that scene was part of the performance they were watching on stage... but now, it serves as (possibly) musical foreshadowing the eventual re-emergence of Plaguis as Snoke.

[...]

Good catch. It would not surprise me, if this is indeed Plaguis' Theme.

The name of the track on the ROTS OST is Palpatine's Teachings.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I'm very much in favor of Plagueis as Snoke. It makes sense from a narrative point of view.

Plagueis/Snoke would tie the trilogies together -- we would have Skywalker family contending against the same evil legacy (Plagueis and his apprentice, Sidious) through the generations. If Plagueis is responsible for the creation of Anakin -- either directly or through his apprentice Sidious -- then that means that Plagueis will face his reckoning with his "descendants." The Star Wars saga would become the story of two families doing battle for the fate of the galaxy across the generations.

That's more compelling emotionally than Snoke as some random darksider.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don't think Snoke is Sith. If Snoke were Sith, Kylo Ren would be Darth Something. I think another group discovered how to use the dark side.

I might prefer that to thinking that Snoke is a continuation of the Sith, as it suggests that the dark side can never be eradicated forever, just by wiping out the people currently using it.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

Why? Snoke makes it clear in the movie that Kylo isn't fully trained, and thus undeserving of a proper Sith title.

That said, there's absolutely nothing stopping Snoke (Sith or otherwise) from starting a new order of dark-side users. They may not be Sith in name, but considering "Sith" is just "Dark Side Jedi" and "Jedi" is just code for "Light Side Force User" for most people, calling both of them Sith is perfectly fine from a laymen's point of view. It's just easier to say "Sith" than "dark side user from a new organization that isn't the same as the Sith Order" every time you talk about one of them.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I recall reading (a really long time ago) that the title "Darth" was an abbreviation for the greater title "DARk Lord of the SiTH". It is significant that Kylo was never addressed as such and that Snoke said that he was to complete his training.

It would explain the noticeable lackluster nature of the lightsaber fights in TFA, compared to the viciousness and speed of the combat in the prequel trilogy. If he was a true Sith, there's no way he should have been bested by a newly awakened neophyte, nor held at bay by a total non-force user like Finn swinging a lightsaber around like a baseball bat.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I assume we'll find more about the Knights of Ren next movie. That's the biggest reason his name isn't "Darth" something, imo.

 

[Kor]

I recall reading (a really long time ago) that the title "Darth" was an abbreviation for the greater title "DARk Lord of the SiTH". It is significant that Kylo was never addressed as such and that Snoke said that he was to complete his training.

It would explain the noticeable lackluster nature of the lightsaber fights in TFA, compared to the viciousness and speed of the combat in the prequel trilogy. If he was a true Sith, there's no way he should have been bested by a newly awakened neophyte, nor held at bay by a total non-force user like Finn swinging a lightsaber around like a baseball bat.

Having a gaping, bleeding bowcaster blast wound in your side will do that to you.

Kor

 

[Set Harth]

Actually, it is a part of the EU that the ancient race of the Sith does (or did) exist

But have they survived into the "new canon"?

 

[Kor]

To be fair, who would have policed the policy either way? If there's only two, they're the only two who could. And if it was just down to one, who'd tell him no? Is there a secret council of Sith Who Aren't Sith But Policy All the Silly Policies They Apparently Have?

Maybe THE SITH? Perhaps they're a species that stays on their own world, and only allows their secret sorcerous knowledge of the dark side of the Force to be known by two outsiders at any given time - a Master, and his Apprentice. And if they find out that anyone else is practicing their arts, they will come out just long enough to hunt them down and eliminate them.

I mean, that goes completely against what we knew from the EU, but since that's all out the window, why not?

Actually, it is a part of the EU that the ancient race of the Sith does (or did) exist, which is why the "rule of two" was a patently stupid rule to begin with. How could Sith Lords become so powerful that the hundreds, possibly thousands of Jedi would fear them so?

Only two could call themselves "Lords," but that doesn't mean they couldn't maintain a power structure with obedient followers and subjects.

Kor

 

[137th Gebirg]

Actually, it is a part of the EU that the ancient race of the Sith does (or did) exist

But have they survived into the "new canon"?

That remains to be seen. I doubt that they'll ever make an appearance (at least, in film) since, as Mr Light correctly said, there are fundamental differences between the ancient Sith race and Sith Lords, and to take time to explain those differences to an audience that only really knows the latter in the limited time a movie represents, it might only serve to add audience confusion to the plot.

It would make a GREAT animated series, however, akin to Clone Wars or Rebels, where they could easily take time to build the mythos around them, provided the show runners determine that any pure-blood descendants lived on into the current age with a valid purpose.

I recall reading (a really long time ago) that the title "Darth" was an abbreviation for the greater title "DARk Lord of the SiTH". It is significant that Kylo was never addressed as such and that Snoke said that he was to complete his training.

It would explain the noticeable lackluster nature of the lightsaber fights in TFA, compared to the viciousness and speed of the combat in the prequel trilogy. If he was a true Sith, there's no way he should have been bested by a newly awakened neophyte, nor held at bay by a total non-force user like Finn swinging a lightsaber around like a baseball bat.

Having a gaping, bleeding bowcaster blast wound in your side will do that to you.

Kor

Can't remember the precise timeline, but I thought that was later on in the film where, yes, it could have been a factor, but not earlier. However, if you notice a couple of scenes where Kylo was hitting himself in the side violently where one of his fresh wounds was, drawing power and energy from the pain. This is a valid Sith practice. In fact, in the EU, I recall something about Darth Maul's training (can't remember which one, there were so many), where he was harshly disciplined by Palpatine for "falling like a Jedi", protecting himself from a fall instead of just dropping and getting hurt, and not making full use of the pain he would experience to ramp up his energy. That was a VERY cool thing that Kylo did that not many people noticed that could arguably demonstrate that the wound actually helped rather than hindered his abilities.

Maybe THE SITH? Perhaps they're a species that stays on their own world, and only allows their secret sorcerous knowledge of the dark side of the Force to be known by two outsiders at any given time - a Master, and his Apprentice. And if they find out that anyone else is practicing their arts, they will come out just long enough to hunt them down and eliminate them.

I mean, that goes completely against what we knew from the EU, but since that's all out the window, why not?

Actually, it is a part of the EU that the ancient race of the Sith does (or did) exist, which is why the "rule of two" was a patently stupid rule to begin with. How could Sith Lords become so powerful that the hundreds, possibly thousands of Jedi would fear them so?

Only two could call themselves "Lords," but that doesn't mean they couldn't maintain a power structure with obedient followers and subjects.

Kor

Yes, point taken there. Very possible.

 

[Set Harth]

Can't remember the precise timeline, but I thought that was later on in the film

The bowcaster blast is definitely before the lightsaber fighting.

That was a VERY cool thing that Kylo did that not many people noticed

I know what you mean, but technically everyone noticed it, it's just that some were perplexed by it.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Can't remember the precise timeline, but I thought that was later on in the film

The bowcaster blast is definitely before the lightsaber fighting.

That was a VERY cool thing that Kylo did that not many people noticed

I know what you mean, but technically everyone noticed it, it's just that some were perplexed by it.

Gotcha. Yes, I should have been more clear about that. Not many people know that Sith ability to draw power from pain. I was actually surprised (albeit pleasantly) that Abrams put that in there. It is quite an obscure reference. Someone definitely did their homework on the Sith arts, though.

 

[the G-man]

The mechanics of Luke training Ben and Snoke somehow seducing him to the dark side seems to demand at least a bit more information. Whether Snoke kidnapped him, or joined Luke's temple/academy at some point, or found some other way of getting close to Ben.

Given that the justifiably derided prequels were all about the mechanics of an older Jedi training his apprentice and that apprentice then getting seduced by the dark side, I don't know about that. Sometimes (as with the OT) we might be better with just a line or two of exposition and and the opportunity to fill in the blanks for ourselves.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Not many people know that Sith ability to draw power from pain. I was actually surprised (albeit pleasantly) that Abrams put that in there. It is quite an obscure reference. Someone definitely did their homework on the Sith arts, though.

Yeah... I'm not sure that's what it was. REAL fighters will do things like that, too - use pain to sharpen focus, stay conscious, raise adrenaline levels, etc. I mean, maybe, but I think you might be giving Abrams and company a little too much credit given some of the other things they clearly missed.

Either way, it was cool and interesting, anyway.

 

[Venardhi]

The mechanics of Luke training Ben and Snoke somehow seducing him to the dark side seems to demand at least a bit more information. Whether Snoke kidnapped him, or joined Luke's temple/academy at some point, or found some other way of getting close to Ben.

Given that the justifiably derided prequels were all about the mechanics of an older Jedi training his apprentice and that apprentice then getting seduced by the dark side, I don't know about that. Sometimes (as with the OT) we might be better with just a line or two of exposition and and the opportunity to fill in the blanks for ourselves.

When I say "a bit" I do mean "a bit." All it would take is 30 seconds of Luke telling Rey about what drove him to self-exile, similar to Obi Wan's explanation of Luke's father. "Snoke knew things about the force and about the ancient Jedi I had feared lost forever. He presented himself as an ally, only to prey upon my most gifted students and in time turned my own Nephew against me. I couldn't sense his evil, it was so pure." Or whatever. That is enough to at least establish an understanding, however vague.

 

[JoeZhang]

Given how this largely ignores the prequels - how much mention of sith is in the original films?

 

[Venardhi]

None. Most of what the EU "expanded" on was the film novelizations and early scripts drafts.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Given how this largely ignores the prequels - how much mention of sith is in the original films?

I think there's one mention that Darth Vader is a "Dark Lord of the Sith" in A New Hope. After that, it never comes up again.