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Shadow (NOT Shadows) of the Empire (Spoilers Acceptable)

USS Triumphant

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http://mashable.com/2015/12/26/star...e/?utm_cid=mash-com-fb-main-link#p0hxN1SkfkqR

I feel like an actual fan would have known better than to do this OR to give a certain character a certain name. I'm starting to feel like Abrams lied about being a fan, or at least, that maybe he's a fan in the same sense that my boss irritates me by claiming to be a "big fan" of Star Trek without really knowing anything much about it.

Alternately, though, if that isn't the case, is it possible that there is a hint as to something going on in TFA that can be gathered from the old "Shadows of the Empire" materials? I'm not thinking of anything right off...
 
http://mashable.com/2015/12/26/star...e/?utm_cid=mash-com-fb-main-link#p0hxN1SkfkqR

I feel like an actual fan would have known better than to do this OR to give a certain character a certain name. I'm starting to feel like Abrams lied about being a fan, or at least, that maybe he's a fan in the same sense that my boss irritates me by claiming to be a "big fan" of Star Trek without really knowing anything much about it.

Alternately, though, if that isn't the case, is it possible that there is a hint as to something going on in TFA that can be gathered from the old "Shadows of the Empire" materials? I'm not thinking of anything right off...
Or maybe he's a fan of the films and never gave a flip about the "EU".
 
Or maybe he's a fan of the films and never gave a flip about the "EU".
I guess this is possible, but even so, it seems to me that if I were making something so beloved by so many, I would do a little due diligence on the rest of the materials. I realize that's a lot, so maybe I'd bring on a couple of superfans who could at least tell me, "yeah - you don't want to name him that..."
 
Or maybe he's a fan of the films and never gave a flip about the "EU".
I guess this is possible, but even so, it seems to me that if I were making something so beloved by so many, I would do a little due diligence on the rest of the materials. I realize that's a lot, so maybe I'd bring on a couple of superfans who could at least tell me, "yeah - you don't want to name him that..."
I also don't give a flip about the EU, so I've no idea what you're referring to. What name? And does it matter?

Don't give a flip about superfans either.
 
Unless I'm missing something, it never says any of them were unaware of the old book. Maybe they just didn't care. It's also possible Arndt's script was titled this and not JJ's.

That said, throwing around accusations that Abrams has been lying to us about being a fan is in rather poor taste and shows an uglier side to nerd culture, I think.
 
There are only so many words in the English language, and "Shadow of the Empire" sounds neat. Maybe the reason they changed it to "The Force Awakens" is because they realized that something else already had that title and they didn't want people getting confused.
 
Eh, I think The Force Awakens is a much better title than Shadow of the Empire, so I'm glad they changed their minds.
 
Yeah, I don't mind the title, but Force Awakens fits better for this movie. To me, this movie continued the vague parallels of the first three like the Prequels did. The Force Awakens comes off similar (once again, at least vaguely) to A New Hope.
 
There are only so many words in the English language, and "Shadow of the Empire" sounds neat. Maybe the reason they changed it to "The Force Awakens" is because they realized that something else already had that title and they didn't want people getting confused.

Exactly. I can see how "Shadow of the Empire" would fit this film. I might even say that that title fits the film better than "Shadows of the Empire" fits the 1996 multimedia project. :)

I can honestly say that if the film had been titled "Shadow of the Empire" I would not have expected to see Xizor, Dash Rendar, Guri, or the Black Sun criminal organization. But I might have liked to see the Outrider in the landing field on Jakku. :)

Several years ago I was working on a novel outline, and the title I wanted to give the project was "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors." Then I remembered that Carl Sagan used that title for an early 1990s book on human evolution. It was the right title, but I didn't want anyone to think one influenced the other. I eventually found an entirely different title... and then the project fell apart in the publishing contraction after the 2008 financial crisis.
 
Unless I'm missing something, it never says any of them were unaware of the old book. Maybe they just didn't care. It's also possible Arndt's script was titled this and not JJ's.

That said, throwing around accusations that Abrams has been lying to us about being a fan is in rather poor taste and shows an uglier side to nerd culture, I think.

I think that it is quite narrow minded not to consider someone a fan if they don't know the extra source material. Just because the EU was considered canon for a while doesn't mean that it was required reading.

I am a huge Star Wars fan. I have been a fan all of my life since I saw A New Hope in 1977--but I don't know anything other than what I see people posting here, nor do I care about what happened in the EU.
 
Or maybe he's a fan of the films and never gave a flip about the "EU".
I guess this is possible, but even so, it seems to me that if I were making something so beloved by so many, I would do a little due diligence on the rest of the materials. I realize that's a lot, so maybe I'd bring on a couple of superfans who could at least tell me, "yeah - you don't want to name him that..."
I also don't give a flip about the EU, so I've no idea what you're referring to. What name? And does it matter?

Don't give a flip about superfans either.

Exactly so. Those people ruin everything.
 
I know there are entitled EU fans who have been throwing around a lot of over-the-top butthurt, but at the same time, what I'm hearing from a lot of you here parses as: "Who cares if they shit all over your fandom, so long as they catered to the part I care about?"

It's honestly pretty selfish and heartless - on par with what it would have been like if Abrams had arbitrarily decided to completely change what the Klingon language is in "Into Darkness" - I mean, sure, learning Klingon is an extremely nerdy and esoteric pursuit that most people wouldn't engage in, but I still hope that we could all feel bad for the people who have put in the time to do so, if that had happened.

For the record, I'm NOT an EU superfan. I read the extra books from before ROTJ came out like "Splinter..." and the Han Solo books, and then the Thrawn Trilogy, Shadows of the Empire, and some of the X-Wing books, but that's really pretty much it - Trek has always been my thing, and I really couldn't get into the Vong *at all*. I don't mind setting it all aside for new stuff from ROTJ on - honestly, I think a lot of it was crap, from what I've been told. I just have friends who are superfans, and I know how much of their time, money, and lives they have put into it, and regardless of how any of us might feel about whether or not that's a worthwhile thing for them to do, I would hope we can feel bad for them when their efforts have been not just negated, but actually slapped in the face.

Which naming Kylo Ren "Ben Solo" did, in my opinion. If Abrams was ignorant of that fact because he only watched the movies, fine, but he should have had someone around who could tell him that that was actually going to anger a portion of the fandom, for no real good reason - since I doubt seriously there is anything at all that hinges on that character's specific first name, and in fact, it's kind of a poor choice for the name since Luke was the only one who knew Kenobi as "Ben". I'm perfectly okay with him not being constrained by the EU, but good grief, man.

And I'm not calling Abrams a "liar" (yes, I know I said he might have "lied", but I didn't mean to call him names or besmirch his character - just that his statement was in factual error) - but I've come to the conclusion that he has a very different idea of what it means to be "a fan" than the sort of people who spend a lot of time on a Star Trek webforum. ;)

I realize that's a lot, so maybe I'd bring on a couple of superfans

And while you're at it, bring on a couple of people who have some concept of the scale of space.
Yes. That, too, please. Preferably, retroactively - before he made "Star Trek 2009", in fact. Get Doc Brown on the phone. He could probably get us back there, explain the scale of space, AND a bit about how adding a star's worth of mass to a planet should affect gravitational conditions there. ;)
 
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I just have friends who are superfans, and I know how much of their time, money, and lives they have put into it, and regardless of how any of us might feel about whether or not that's a worthwhile thing for them to do, I would hope we can feel bad for them when their efforts have been not just negated, but actually slapped in the face.

Which naming Kylo Ren "Ben Solo" did, in my opinion. If Abrams was ignorant of that fact because he only watched the movies, fine, but he should have had someone around who could tell him that that was actually going to anger a portion of the fandom, for no real good reason
You can't be serious.

since I doubt seriously there is anything at all that hinges on that character's specific first name, and in fact, it's kind of a poor choice for the name since Luke was the only one who knew Kenobi as "Ben". I'm perfectly okay with him not being constrained by the EU, but good grief, man.
What name do you think Han knew him as? Probably "Ben".
 
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I just have friends who are superfans, and I know how much of their time, money, and lives they have put into it, and regardless of how any of us might feel about whether or not that's a worthwhile thing for them to do, I would hope we can feel bad for them when their efforts have been not just negated, but actually slapped in the face.

Which naming Kylo Ren "Ben Solo" did, in my opinion. If Abrams was ignorant of that fact because he only watched the movies, fine, but he should have had someone around who could tell him that that was actually going to anger a portion of the fandom, for no real good reason
You can't be serious.
I can be, and I am. From the perspective of Disney, alienating the fandom for *no REAL* creative reason could have an unnecessary potential negative effect on their investment. And I mean, c'mon - one would have thought there would be someone involved in making *the new Star Wars movie* that would have known that, whether Abrams intentionally sought out an EU expert or not!

What name do you think Han knew him as? Probably "Ben".
What, you mean for the few hours he knew him before he got struck down by Vader? Or for the years after when pretty much *everyone* except Luke who talked about the sacrifice he made - including Han's wife - would have called him "Obi-Wan"? I'm sure a case could be made for the name if someone tried really hard, but it's needless, when using "Bail" or even "Anakin" would have had much more straight-forward reasoning, and they *could* have actually thrown a bone to the EU people and gotten *positive* response from it if they had called him "Jacen".
 
Only the tiniest, most miniscule fraction of Star Wars fans read the novels. They take a larger risk of alienating the non-novel readers, who are much greater in number, if they base the new movies on some old books that they've never read. And I say that as a fan of the old EU.
 
Only the tiniest, most miniscule fraction of Star Wars fans read the novels. They take a larger risk of alienating the non-novel readers, who are much greater in number, if they base the new movies on some old books that they've never read. And I say that as a fan of the old EU.
And in no way am I suggesting that they base *the whole* of the new movies on them. I'm saying that on this one, tiny detail that did not matter otherwise if they had gone a different direction, they screwed the pooch.
 
This is fast becoming laughable. Fan entitlement seems to know no end.

For what it's worth, I've read much of the EU, including the books with Ben and Shadows of the Empire, and I wouldn't dream to think Abrams is insulting us. The new films are their own thing and they should do what is right for the story, old books be damned because they've been declared not canon. That's the end of the discussion right there.
 
That's the end of the discussion right there.
No, it isn't, and you have no right to declare that.

If this were some aspect of fandom you care about, you'd expect that your opinion would be respected, but just because it's something you don't care about (and in your case, I suspect because it is something that I specifically have expressed concern about), you dismiss it out of hand. Hell, honestly, I don't care except that I know that it was pointlessly disrespectful to people who do (and that, completely disregarding that or the EU, it's just a poor choice for the name, story-wise). I would expect *a little* more fellowship among the fandoms in this regard, but I guess I should know better.
 
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