• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND

Are you sure that he meant hot in the Nuclear sense and not temperature wise?

Can anyone recall a single episode of TOS in which deadly radiation from the warp engine was a problem?

IIRC, it didn't become a thing until TWoK.

I think the Menagerie, and the whole thing with Captain Pike, is the closest they ever came. Normally it seemed to be a danger of the warp core exploding more than anything else from what I remember, but it's been a while since I've really watched TOS.
 
Normally it seemed to be a danger of the warp core exploding more than anything else from what I remember, but it's been a while since I've really watched TOS.

Well, the term "warp core" wasn't coined until TNG. The sad thing there is that in "Contagion," a warp core breach was introduced as something so vanishingly rare, due to all the multiply redundant safeguards, that it was a huge mystery that such a thing had happened at all. But later writers latched onto "warp core breach" as a convenient hazard and started having them happen so routinely that it seemed a warp core would blow up if you looked at it funny. Which is what happens when you half-ass the "science" side of science fiction.
 
I think the Menagerie, and the whole thing with Captain Pike, is the closest they ever came. Normally it seemed to be a danger of the warp core exploding more than anything else from what I remember, but it's been a while since I've really watched TOS.

Oh yeah, duh. Thanks. Me too.

That was Delta Radiation, for which, interestingly, MA says the following, (note highlighted word)

Delta radiation was a highly energetic release of electromagnetic particles which can be extremely dangerous with prolonged exposure. Delta radiation could be created by the warp cores of Federation starships and some natural astronomical phenomena. Exposure to intense delta radiation could lead to cellular disruption. (ENT: "Daedalus")

"Could" be produced. Would not seem to be part of standard operation, but a possible result of an anomaly. Radiation from the warp core meant something was seriously wrong.

Since Enterprise predates TOS, they went with being in close proximity to the core as not dangerous under normal operating status.
 
^You asked if any episode ever mentioned the radiation. I said, no, it didn't, and the fact that it didn't is exactly what I'm disappointed in.
IIRC "The Catwalk", where the crew have to take shelter inside the nacelles, might very well fit your bill. Although maybe that's worse, given in reality they'd be impossibly polluted to purge and then walk around unprotected.

There's an admittedly jokey line of dialogue in "Broken Bow" where Hoshi asks if Archer should be standing so close to the reactor.

"In a Mirror, Darkly" has Trip facially scarred (Pike style) by Delta radiation and claim his grandkids will probably glow in the dark.
 
The design of the warp core never really bothered me. I figure, if they have the technology to harness the power of matter/anti-matter annihilation into a feasible FTL propulsion system, then they were able to engineer some sort of advanced, compact shielding for the warp core components. The operating systems of the actual external engines probably put off a ton more energy than could be contained safely.

Of course, if we suspend our disbelief for the development of FTL propulsion within 60 years of our current time, you have to be forgiving for some of the window dressing.
 
IIRC "The Catwalk", where the crew have to take shelter inside the nacelles, might very well fit your bill.

On a related note, I'm not sure what species the creature in your avatar is, but I have a suspicion it can live inside the catwalk happily. Maybe there are some of those living in there, in symbiosis with the nacelles, tending to them... so to speak? ;)
 
That was Delta Radiation, for which, interestingly, MA says the following, (note highlighted word)

Delta radiation was a highly energetic release of electromagnetic particles which can be extremely dangerous with prolonged exposure. Delta radiation could be created by the warp cores of Federation starships and some natural astronomical phenomena. Exposure to intense delta radiation could lead to cellular disruption. (ENT: "Daedalus")
"Could" be produced. Would not seem to be part of standard operation, but a possible result of an anomaly. Radiation from the warp core meant something was seriously wrong.

But "delta radiation" is imaginary. There is no such thing. It's just a bit of techobabble. In real life, ionizing radiation tends to be categorized as alpha (high-energy helium nuclei), beta (high-energy electrons or positrons), and gamma (high-energy photons), so Trek writers who wanted to sound futuristic would make up additional, imaginary Greek-letter categories like delta and epsilon and theta radiation. So delta radiation was obviously not meant to be the only kind there was, but an additional category beyond the ones that were already known today.

And every matter-antimatter reaction produces gamma radiation, as I said. That is not optional. That is just what happens. That is E=mc^2. Every particle and its antiparticle has a known mass, and when they react, they produce a known amount of energy, which corresponds to a photon of a known wavelength in the range we call gamma rays.


IIRC "The Catwalk", where the crew have to take shelter inside the nacelles, might very well fit your bill. Although maybe that's worse, given in reality they'd be impossibly polluted to purge and then walk around unprotected.

Well, radiation is not pollution. People have a tendency to treat radioactive material and radiation as if they were the same thing, but that's like treating a guitar and the sound it makes as the same thing. Being exposed to radiation is like having a light shine on you. Once the light source shuts off, the light is gone. It's different from actually being contaminated by radioactive material like plutonium or nuclear fallout. That's actually having a physical substance in the environment that emits radiation. That wouldn't happen with a warp reaction. The end products of a deuterium-antideuterium annihilation reaction (leaving out the decay steps in between) would be gamma-ray photons (basically just really intense light), neutrinos (which pass through everything and have no effect), and electrons or positrons. So it's just radiation, no material to speak of. There is no such thing as "antimatter waste," despite the idiocy of Voyager's Malon episodes.

However, it is possible for many substances that are exposed to sufficiently intense radiation to have some of their own atoms transmuted into unstable, radioactive isotopes, which would then give off radiation of their own. So realistically, it probably wouldn't be safe inside the nacelle catwalk even with the engines shut down. And it would probably take days after shutdown for the metal and the atmosphere in the catwalk to cool to survivable temperatures. After all, contrary to popular myth about the instant-freezing effect of space, vacuum is actually an excellent insulator, so the nacelles would cool down rather slowly.


The design of the warp core never really bothered me. I figure, if they have the technology to harness the power of matter/anti-matter annihilation into a feasible FTL propulsion system, then they were able to engineer some sort of advanced, compact shielding for the warp core components.

Sure, it's common enough in sci-fi to posit some super-advanced sciencey solution to a problem that can be solved in a simpler way, like force fields instead of walls or tractor beams instead of cables. But the problem with that is that the first rule of good engineering is to keep it simple. If a basic, no-frills solution like a wall works, then you use a wall instead of wasting energy on something complicated and unreliable like a force field. And if you want to shield yourself from radiation, the most basic, straightforward, infallible way of doing that is with distance. The greater the amount of either space or solid matter between you and the radiation source, the less radiation can reach you. That's using physics -- the inverse-square law -- to your advantage. If a radiation-blocking force field fails, you're cooked. But having the reactor just be a safe distance from the inhabited parts of the ship is a lot more foolproof. The distance isn't going to go away if the power fails. So just because a solution is more high-tech, that doesn't make it smarter.
 
Well, radiation is not pollution. People have a tendency to treat radioactive material and radiation as if they were the same thing, but that's like treating a guitar and the sound it makes as the same thing. Being exposed to radiation is like having a light shine on you.

That's technically true, but in reality the crazily irradiated materials making up the nacelles would... Er, you already mentioned that in the next paragraph. I find it hard to tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with the statement you're replying to.

It's difficult to imagine anything exposed to that kind of radiation would not be turning into radioactive soup that's impossible to scrub... Enough radiation to bend space would be enough to turn even the wishalloy of the nacelles into atomic Swiss cheese of isotopes. I wouldn't come anywhere near it in like a millennium, which is when it will most likely cool down. It's polluted just fine.

On the bright side, space wouldn't be serving its job as a good insulator when the entire nacelle is glowing, radiating its heat as it perennially cools down to its current temperature. It won't cool down fast or at all, but it will get anything nearby hot very quick.

That's why starships are just so damn irresistible.
 
That's technically true, but in reality the crazily irradiated materials making up the nacelles would... Er, you already mentioned that in the next paragraph. I find it hard to tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with the statement you're replying to.

I'm just clarifying how the physics works. I don't see these discussions as an attempt to win an argument or something, but as an opportunity to be informative and offer things for people to think about and learn from. Science fiction is a great way to get people thinking and curious about the universe, which is why I find it such a missed opportunity when so much mass-media sci-fi is lazy with the science or actively promotes misinformation. There's room for pure space fantasy like Star Wars or Flash Gordon, but it should be alongside the more grounded and informative stuff, rather than nearly monopolizing the genre. But even talking about the science holes in more fanciful SF can be a good way to engage in an informative discussion of real science.


On the bright side, space wouldn't be serving its job as a good insulator when the entire nacelle is glowing, radiating its heat as it perennially cools down to its current temperature. It won't cool down fast or at all, but it will get anything nearby hot very quick.
Which is why a good starship design would include large heat radiator sails/fins that point away from the body of the ship or whose faces are perpendicular to it, so that they don't cancel out their own effectiveness by radiating the heat right back onto the ship it just got radiated away from. This is perhaps the most pervasive shortfall of plausibility even in the most realistic movies and shows -- the absence of heat radiators. The Discovery in 2001, one of the most scientifically accurate movies ever, was going to have radiator fins, but Kubrick ditched them because he didn't think the audience would understand them or something.
 
Yeah, it's weird. Not being able to understand radiators in space is somewhat ironic given that it is the only place where they would be literally radiators.
 
I think the Menagerie, and the whole thing with Captain Pike, is the closest they ever came. Normally it seemed to be a danger of the warp core exploding more than anything else from what I remember, but it's been a while since I've really watched TOS.

Oh yeah, duh. Thanks. Me too.

That was Delta Radiation, for which, interestingly, MA says the following, (note highlighted word)

Delta radiation was a highly energetic release of electromagnetic particles which can be extremely dangerous with prolonged exposure. Delta radiation could be created by the warp cores of Federation starships and some natural astronomical phenomena. Exposure to intense delta radiation could lead to cellular disruption. (ENT: "Daedalus")

"Could" be produced. Would not seem to be part of standard operation, but a possible result of an anomaly. Radiation from the warp core meant something was seriously wrong.

Since Enterprise predates TOS, they went with being in close proximity to the core as not dangerous under normal operating status.

Indeed, although it's also possible that TOS had no idea how dangerous it really was either (given how little really we know about the warp core in the Enterprise) until the TMP timeframe, and it's only around then and after that good shielding starts to come into effect. In NuTrek things are still in a relatively unrefined era. I always got the impression that the Warp Drive was much more brute force with a big radiation spewing core that can be finicky, and the nacelle's having the exhaust, and whatnot.
 
No lava lamp in ENT - it was a giant pizza oven. :D
And I had a problem with the warp core actually being in the same room as the engineers who maintained it. The heat and radiation from that thing should've been prohibitive.

If the warp reactor does produce these things (seems to happen only when convenient to plot), I imagine they would normally be contained by an electromagnetic field, perhaps even channelled back into the reaction or diverted to power other systems on the ship.
 
That's supposed to be the idea, or so I thought. Whatever energies are produced by the matter-antimatter reaction are used to power the various systems aboard ship. Not merely the explosion, but all energies, each diverted according to where and how it will do the most good.
 
Another way of looking at is that the NX-01 actually had the post-TOS lavalamp, but it was contained in the shell we saw, which was a heavy-duty protective housing, precisely to contain elements that later technologies dealt with in a less industrial-looking way.
 
If the warp reactor does produce these things (seems to happen only when convenient to plot), I imagine they would normally be contained by an electromagnetic field, perhaps even channelled back into the reaction or diverted to power other systems on the ship.

Again, though, that's not how physics works. EM fields can only deflect charged particles. Gamma rays are photons, which are electrically neutral. EM fields have no ability to contain or deflect EM radiation. Only a material substance of some kind can absorb gamma-ray photons, and generally you need a fairly thick layer of it, because it's a statistical process -- there's plenty of empty space between the particles of even a dense material, and so a lot of the photons will just plain miss the particles in a thin sheet, so you need a thicker sheet to maximize the number of photons that will be absorbed. (Not to mention that the atoms that absorb the gamma rays' energy will then re-emit it as lower-energy photons like ultraviolet rays, which are still dangerous to humans, so you'd need a further amount of shielding to absorb those. And eventually the energy would be stepped down enough that it would be emitted as infrared, meaning that the shielding layer would get hot -- another reason it's a bad idea to have it in direct contact with a populated part of the ship.)
 
I think the Menagerie, and the whole thing with Captain Pike, is the closest they ever came. Normally it seemed to be a danger of the warp core exploding more than anything else from what I remember, but it's been a while since I've really watched TOS.

Oh yeah, duh. Thanks. Me too.

That was Delta Radiation, for which, interestingly, MA says the following, (note highlighted word)

Delta radiation was a highly energetic release of electromagnetic particles which can be extremely dangerous with prolonged exposure. Delta radiation could be created by the warp cores of Federation starships and some natural astronomical phenomena. Exposure to intense delta radiation could lead to cellular disruption. (ENT: "Daedalus")

"Could" be produced. Would not seem to be part of standard operation, but a possible result of an anomaly. Radiation from the warp core meant something was seriously wrong.

Since Enterprise predates TOS, they went with being in close proximity to the core as not dangerous under normal operating status.

Indeed, although it's also possible that TOS had no idea how dangerous it really was either (given how little really we know about the warp core in the Enterprise) until the TMP timeframe, and it's only around then and after that good shielding starts to come into effect. In NuTrek things are still in a relatively unrefined era. I always got the impression that the Warp Drive was much more brute force with a big radiation spewing core that can be finicky, and the nacelle's having the exhaust, and whatnot.

I always thought TOS thought warp engines were relatively safe, and clean, but could be a bear to control at times.

As kids, we saw it as a scaled up generator. The product of the warp reaction was megawatts of electricity applied to huge magnets creating the warp field which warped time and space. It was beautifully simple.

That it became more dangerous was, imo, a retcon meant to tap into fears over nuclear products, but it also added a new way to create danger for the heroes to deal with.
 
This is perhaps the first star trek film I won't bother go seeing in the cinemas.

In fact I might boycott it altogether. What happens when you hire talentless director behind some of the worst films in recent history with record for making stupid films with same dull plot lines aimed at audience with low IQ.

If you combines fast and furious and space, what do you get ? I mean if Paul Walker was still alive I'm sure he'd replace Chris Pine as a captain Kirk, and that one liner actor Vin Diesel as Scotty and first officer and the science officer all in one.
 
Last edited:
I don't enjoy sitting in crowded theaters. Looks like I might actually get to see this movie before the home video release. :lol:
 
This is perhaps the first star trek film I won't bother go seeing in the cinemas.

In fact I might boycott it altogether. What happens when you hire talentless director behind some of the worst films in recent history with record for making stupid films with same dull plot lines aimed at audience with low IQ.

If you combines fast and furious and space, what do you get ? I mesn if Paul Walker was still alive I'd sure he'd replace Chris Pine as a captain Kirk, and that one liner actor Vin Diesel as Scotty and first officer and the science officer all in one.
That's an odd garble of a post. How many Lin directed projects have you seen? What were their plot lines and why were they dull?

Why do you assume Walker and Diesel would be cast as Kirk and Scotty/Spock? Its not like Lin cast them in the F&F films. Like Pine in Star Trek, they were part of the franchise before Lin directed his first F&F film, a film they weren't part of outside of a cameo by Diesel at the end.
 
Last edited:
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top