Too many dystopias - the world needs utopian Star Trek

[Overgeeked]

why would people go to Risa to partake of it, as opposed to just using a holodeck?

Because Risa is real, and a holodeck/suite is fake. When you enter a holodeck, you know you're on a holodeck.

What's wrong with prostitution when both parties consent?

It not about concent, it about sexually servicing anyone (anyone at all) who buys a certain statue.

And you thought your job sucked (no pun intented).

Again, so what? What's the problem with selling sex or casual sex if no one's exploited or forced into that?

Besides, it is about consent. Anyone having one of those statues is simply declaring publicly that they're open to a good time. No one's being forced to do anything. It's like going to a singles bar and complaining that people are just out to get laid. That's the whole bloody point of the place. No one's forced to sexually service anyone, they're there of their own volition. They're approaching other people of their own free will. Both parties agree they're interested in a bit of casual sex. Again, Trek should be commended for showing not only an advance in technology but sexuality.

 

[Kor]

There are places on Earth where it is legal and regulated, and the workers must have regular health screenings to stay licensed. I think that might be a discussion for a different forum...

To be relevant to this discussion, how would that be viewed in the 24th-century Federation (which may or may not use money, as has been argued in other threads)?

One thing to consider about the Horga'hn statue is that you don't trade it in like currency for the "Jamaharon" rite. You just display the statue. Presumably you can put it away and display it at those times when you are seeking that rite with a native of Risa, as that is part of the culture of their planet, and not just the "job" of certain Risians who work as resort employees.

Is the Horga'hn statue just a commodity? Who's to stop someone from making their own and displaying it? And as a cultural artifact, there are probably Horga'hns that have been in family lines for centuries.

Kor

 

[T'Girl]

There are places on Earth where it is legal and regulated, and the workers must have regular health screenings to stay licensed.

While the vast majority of prostitutes are operating illegally, are prostitutes because of some form of coercion, or are captive sex slaves.

... the 24th-century Federation (which may or may not use money ...

Picard clearly states that he "purchased" the statue. Risa by all indications is a part of the Federation.

 

[Overgeeked]

There are places on Earth where it is legal and regulated, and the workers must have regular health screenings to stay licensed.

While the vast majority of prostitutes are operating illegally, are prostitutes because of some form of coercion, or are captive sex slaves.

... the 24th-century Federation (which may or may not use money ...

Picard clearly states that he "purchased" the statue. Risa by all indications is a part of the Federation.

 

[fireproof78]

why would people go to Risa to partake of it, as opposed to just using a holodeck?

Because Risa is real, and a holodeck/suite is fake. When you enter a holodeck, you know you're on a holodeck.

What's wrong with prostitution when both parties consent?

It not about concent, it about sexually servicing anyone (anyone at all) who buys a certain statue.

And you thought your job sucked (no pun intented).

Again, so what? What's the problem with selling sex or casual sex if no one's exploited or forced into that?

Besides, it is about consent. Anyone having one of those statues is simply declaring publicly that they're open to a good time. No one's being forced to do anything. It's like going to a singles bar and complaining that people are just out to get laid. That's the whole bloody point of the place. No one's forced to sexually service anyone, they're there of their own volition. They're approaching other people of their own free will. Both parties agree they're interested in a bit of casual sex. Again, Trek should be commended for showing not only an advance in technology but sexuality.

Curious as to why this is considered an "advance" in sexual attitudes

Risa seemed to be unique in its status as a Federation member world. Their attitude is does not seem commonplace.

 

[Overgeeked]

Curious as to why this is considered an "advance" in sexual attitudes

Because it eliminates a clear hangup and frees people to do with their bodies what they will without shame, whether personal or from society.

Risa seemed to be unique in its status as a Federation member world. Their attitude is does not seem commonplace.

The use of the statue to signal interest in casual sex might be a uniquely Risan cultural practice, but free and open sexuality is shown throughout Trek series from TNG onwards. I'm just starting a TNG rewatch and there's plenty of people fucking without recrimination or jealousy. Clearly a societal advance from what we're seeing demonstrated here.

 

[hux]

but free and open sexuality is shown throughout Trek series from TNG onwards. I'm just starting a TNG rewatch and there's plenty of people fucking without recrimination or jealousy. Clearly a societal advance from what we're seeing demonstrated here.

I saw no such thing. All I ever saw was conventional, monogamous relationships where heterosexual couples exhibited extremely conservative values and interests.

Riker talks about Risa like a giddy schoolboy taking about a brothel. At one point he advises Picard to go and does so as though the notion of finding casual sex anywhere else in the Federation isn't quite as easy.

 

[T'Girl]

Risa seemed to be unique in its status as a Federation member world. Their attitude is does not seem commonplace.

The same could be said of Vulcan and their unique practices, there probably isn't such a thing as a "common" Federation planet.

Because it eliminates a clear hangup and frees people to do with their bodies what they will without shame, whether personal or from society.

There shouldn't be any hangups concerning prostitution?

The use of the statue to signal interest in casual sex ...

More likely a sign that you've paid your "bar fine" and the staff whores needs to get busy offering themselves in turn, so you can make your selection.

there's plenty of people fucking

I saw no such thing. All I ever saw was conventional, monogamous relationships where heterosexual couples exhibited extremely conservative values and interests

How often did Picard get laid? Rarely. How about LaForge or Barkley?

I mean Kirk had two or three lovers a year and in the Trek universe he's seen as quite the ladies man. Dr. Bashir with his constant skirt chasing comes off as slightly pathetic.

Riker is depicted as a successful serial philanderer, but this is also depicted as unusual.

.

 

[Overgeeked]

Well since people apparently don't bother watching the show they're talking about, here's a quick article on sex in Trek.

Aside from the big ones and firsts listed there, there are numerous episodes that simply portray sex as a casual exchange between people when they want it to be casual, or serious when they want it to be serious. Some early ones are the Naked Now, though probably a bad example with the drunk disease. There's also the Outrageous Okona. At least four casual sexual encounters are referenced on screen (though likely quite a few more are hinted at). Other good examples are any of the various relationships Riker or Deanna have over the course of TNG.

Though there is always a bit of tension between Deanna and Riker when either hooks up with someone else. Though there's maybe only two depictions of the 'jealous lover' trope that I remember. When Deanna is being mind controlled and the crazy scientist that thinks Riker borked his wife then tries to murder him. The trial that pulls a Rashomon. When Deanna and Worf hook up Worf talks to Riker, but he's confused as to why Worf is talking to him. Worf explains that it's a cultural thing for him but Riker basically says that's old fashioned and the decision is none of Riker's business that it's entirely up to Deanna.

A good note for the changes in sexual freedom is Worf and Dax's relationship. To him one sexual encounter meant they must be getting married, but to her it was just sex. This popped up earlier with Worf and Alexander's mother. This shows Klingon (or at least Worf's ideas of sex as far more conservative that most others, even other Klingons). The portrayal of Dax and Kira on DS9 is also interesting as they're show to quite liberal (Dax) and fairly conservative (Kira), yet both will have sex with whoever they want. And no, not the hyper-sexualized Mirror Kira. Yet, neither woman is shown regretting sex or being shamed for having sex. At worst one will regret having sex with a given person because it will change their friendship or relationship.

 

[hux]

Well since people apparently don't bother watching the show they're talking about

Durrrr, me watch spacey sex-trek show.

To argue that Trek has been progressive in its portrayals of sex and sexuality is just a tad silly. It hints and titillates and cheekily squeezes your bum then runs away giggling but... it has not shown any real conviction on the issue. It has, in fact, been very conservative in its outlook and attitude.

Heterosexual monogamy and marriage are the 24th century norm. The late 20th century is more progressive.

 

[T'Girl]

It hints and titillates and cheekily squeezes your bum then runs away giggling but... it has not shown any real conviction on the issue.

Picard and Beverly play "will they - won't they" for the entire TNG run, but only hookup in a alternate timeline. Just from we've seen, LaForge could easily still be a virgin.

Sisko has sex every two years or so, until he forms a monogamist relationship with Kassity.

Outside of the Belanna/Tom marriage, was anyone on Voyager getting any?

Now yes, a small number of people were having more than a slow trickle of intercourse, but they stand out as the exceptions.

.

 

[Drone]

Has this last round of foreplay been advocating Trek as a model of a utopia or dystopia? I'm confused.

 

[fireproof78]

Has this last round of foreplay been advocating Trek as a model of a utopia or dystopia? I'm confused.

I don't think there is a clear statement of one way or the other.

I merely asked the question if the Risian attitude towards sex and sexuality was a Federation norm? If so, why is that considered "evolved?"

I'm not coming down one way or the other. I'm more interested in the discussion.

 

[BigJake]

Curious as to why this is considered an "advance" in sexual attitudes

Why wouldn't an enlightened attitude toward consent and sexual liberty be considered an advance? (And yes, that would include prostitution -- especially in a non-monetary society where prostitution wouldn't be forced on anyone by poverty or extremity but would be a free choice. Though what exactly does one prostitute oneself for in a non-monetary society? Dance lessons?) I mean, you must have something in mind here. Speak on it.

 

[fireproof78]

Curious as to why this is considered an "advance" in sexual attitudes

Why wouldn't an enlightened attitude toward consent and sexual liberty be considered an advance? (And yes, that would include prostitution -- especially in a non-monetary society where prostitution wouldn't be forced on anyone by poverty or extremity but would be a free choice. Though what exactly does one prostitute oneself for in a non-monetary society? Dance lessons?) I mean, you must have something in mind here. Speak on it.

Not really. If one thing has been illustrated to from years of counseling research attitudes towards sexuality are varied across cultures and individual experiences. Even research is nebulous on the outcomes of more open relationships, finding that there can be as much negative impact as positive.

I am more curious (yes, curious) to know individual attitudes towards sexuality and why one is preferred over the other? Terms like "evolved" and "advanced" get tossed around, but I always wondered individual rationales behind such terms.

Yes, it is a legitimate curiosity. There is so much variation that understanding other perspectives is really helpful to me.

 

[BigJake]

The variables in the Federation's case are universal prosperity and the clear ascendance of consensuality, not "open relationships." E.g. people who consent to be in a kind of relationship can have one, and those who don't, don't have to. So I don't understand what this is all about:

If one thing has been illustrated to from years of counseling research attitudes towards sexuality are varied across cultures and individual experiences.

Nobody's being forced into one "attitude towards sexuality." Nobody's even being compelled to vacation on Risa and get freaky-deaky with people who dig casual sex if they don't want to. (The Risans are hinted at as being more generally sex-oriented than the Federation standard.) And presumably, though Trek was cowardly about showing this in keeping with Eighties American television norms, nobody's being forced into just heteronormative sex either. (Given the variety of species on offer it's in fact probable that there's something to suit tastes as catholic as those of Captain Jack Harkness.)

So, why are you "curious" as to whether a situation that allows variation without forcing anything on any particular culture is credibly described as "more advanced"? Do you have some other notion about what would be a "more advanced" situation? (I'm leaving aside "evolved," which is meaningless in this context.) If so, what is it?

 

[T'Girl]

especially in a non-monetary society

Come on, they obviously have money. In the very episode we currently discussing, Picard directly states that he purchased that statue.

And presumably, though Trek was cowardly about showing this in keeping with Eighties American television norms

The norms in American 1980's TV was that sex was constantly and openly going on. Watch any random episode of The Love Boat.

nobody's being forced into just heteronormative sex either

Then why was that the only sexuality we saw

Though what exactly does one prostitute oneself for in a non-monetary society?

If they're prostituting themselves then money. If someone else is forcing prostitution upon them, then it's through some kind of coercion.

.

 

[BigJake]

Come on, they obviously have money.

The Federation is directly stated innumerable times to not have money. Enough of a specific point is made of it that we can probably assume terms like "purchased" to be references to bartering for items or time or resources other than money.

And presumably, though Trek was cowardly about showing this in keeping with Eighties American television norms

The norms in American 1980's TV was that sex was constantly and openly going on. Watch any random episode of The Love Boat.

nobody's being forced into just heteronormative sex either

Then why was that the only sexuality we saw

So... you hacked a sentence in half, furnished up a pointless non sequitur in "response" to the first half and then posed a question to the second half that the sentence in full had already answered. That's completely bizarre. Why would you do that?

Ah well, never mind. I guess I'll just chalk it up to "T'Girl says the darnedest things."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

nobody's being forced into just heteronormative sex either

Then why was that the only sexuality we saw

Don't remember the end of "The Host", do we?

Come on, they obviously have money.

The Federation is directly stated innumerable times to not have money.

And also stated many other times TO have money. What I get from this is, money exists when it serves the plot of whatever episode or film we're watching, and doesn't exist when its nonexistence serves the plot.

Enough of a specific point is made of it that we can probably assume terms like "purchased" to be references to bartering for items or time or resources other than money.

Perhaps, but I chalk this up to a simple bit of grandstanding on Picard's part, because most of the no-money talk is from him.

Let me ask you this: If you believe the Federation doesn't use money, what do you think "credits" are?

 

[T'Girl]

Don't remember the end of "The Host", do we?

I sure do. Odan (the slug) was attracted to Beverly, a female, after assuming a new male body, Odan continued to be attracted to Beverly. After assuming a new body (female), Odan continued to be attracted to Beverly. Odan's sexual orientation (the one on display) remained constant, Odan was attracted to a female.

Beverly was attracted to Odan while he was in two separate male hosts, once Odan was in a female host Beverly's attraction disappeared, Beverly's sexual orientation remained constant, she's attracted to a male.

The Federation is directly stated innumerable times to not have money.

And by "innumerable" you mean all two? There are more references to money's existence, than it's absence.

Enough of a specific point is made of it that we can probably assume terms like "purchased" to be references to bartering for items or time or resources other than money.

More likely Picard use some of his Starfleet pay, Starfleet officers are shown to have financial means.

The norms in American 1980's TV was that sex was constantly and openly going on. Watch any random episode of The Love Boat.

Ah well, never mind. I guess I'll just chalk it up to "T'Girl says the darnedest things."

Sure, the darnedest thing that are based on observations of the show. Let's be honest, an omni-sexual man-slut in the vein of Captain Jack Harkness has never been even remotely hinted to exist in the Trek prime universe. It not a case of "oh, well they could," they're just not there.