How many times did Kirk falsify his log?

[The Old Mixer]

That's something that I like about TOS...that starship captains were the law out there on the final frontier, the highest representatives of Federation authority while often separatd from Starfleet Command by a substantial communications delay. It's not the same as the TNG era, when an admiral was always a realtime video call away.

 

[Greg Cox]

That's something that I like about TOS...that starship captains were the law out there on the final frontier, the highest representatives of Federation authority while often separatd from Starfleet Command by a substantial communications delay. It's not the same as the TNG era, when an admiral was always a realtime video call away.

There's also the idea that space is BIG, so that it's highly unlikely that any Federation vessel will ever swing by this way again, and certainly not in Khan's lifetime.

Note: that even Spock talks about revisiting the planet a hundred years hence. Khan blames Kirk for never checking on him afterwards, but it doesn't sound as though the Starfleet did regular patrols of that sector. It was an isolated, distant world in a largely unexplored corner of the galaxy, far from the beaten track . . . which fits with idea that, years later, the Reliant was conducting its top-secret Genesis project way out in the middle of nowhere where nobody ever goes.

 

[Timo]

Or microbial life could be very plentiful throughout the universe.

Hmm. It would be practically impossible to find a planet with breathable air and no microbes whatsoever, as not even a sterilizing event such as snowballing could kill all of the tough little beasties... So little critters living deep inside rock probably weren't showstoppers for testing Genesis, or else Terrell should have called off the expedition the moment he took his helmet off inside Khan's shack and didn't suffocate.

There's also the idea that space is BIG, so that it's highly unlikely that any Federation vessel will ever swing by this way again, and certainly not in Khan's lifetime.

Also, ships seem to be awfully busy: say, Kirk thought it was worth eating into the safety margin of a life-or-death mission to study the Murasaki effect, even though clearly his ship could reach this location, and arguably could have returned there the next week. Apparently, the rare shortcut Kirk was taking to the medicine delivery rendezvous was something he thought he could not repeat for years...

Note: that even Spock talks about revisiting the planet a hundred years from hence.

Exactly. There was never any real plan of returning - which is what is often forgotten in arguments around ST2.

It was an isolated, distant world in a largely unexplored corner of the galaxy, far from the beaten track ...

I'd nitpick that the track would remain unbeaten exactly because it was already thoroughly explored and found uninteresting. In "Space Seed", it was said UFP/human traffic had moved on to other places already; in ST2, the heroes were thoroughly familiar with the neighborhood, not merely noticing that there was a nebula nearby, but knowing it by name, nickname and zodiac sign...

We never learn what Kirk was originally doing in this area in "Space Seed", nor whether it would have been trivially simple for him to create a cover story for his movements during the adventure, or hellishly difficult to explain why he had not been able to perform his appointed mission in time. Perhaps he was once again taking a shortcut from Where No Man Had Gone Before to Starbase X, meaning flying through space Starfleet wasn't really interested in.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Well, that would depend on exactly why Ceti Alpha VI exploded in the first place. And I'd hazard a guess that it wasn't something that could be easily predicted. Planets don't just explode for no reason. Something MADE Ceti Alpha VI blow up. It may have been something Kirk couldn't possibly know about...

I'd put my money on the likelihood that it was Nerim, mining for Cosmoniium. Oops, wrong forum. Sorry about that.

Non-canon though this may be, I buy the explanation that was propounded in the Vanguard novels.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Hmm. It would be practically impossible to find a planet with breathable air and no microbes whatsoever, as not even a sterilizing event such as snowballing could kill all of the tough little beasties... So little critters living deep inside rock probably weren't showstoppers for testing Genesis

The director of the project disagrees with you: "If there's so much as a microbe down there, the show's off!"

 

[JonnyQuest037]

A thought: Does Kirk have the authority to give away a planet? I don't think so.
IMO, not only did Kirk not lie about Ceti Alpha V, I think he cleared his course of action with his higher-ups beforehand.

That seems very likely to me.

The intent must have been to suggest a starry wilderness so accessible by warp drive, and yet so huge and flush with Class M planets, that it was literally first come, first served. Land free for the taking by any Federation settlers willing to make the trip.

But even so, for Starfleet to give so much autonomy to a ship captain, it would have to be a situation where the ship is going to be entirely out of contact with higher-ups for a long stretch of time.

Which is very much in keeping with the original concept of the Star Trek series. Kirk didn't have to check with the Starfleet brass on everything because they weren't in touch with each other that much. He had the authority to do big things like that because he was the authority.

The Kirk of the first season especially probably only checked in with Starfleet on the rare occasions that he docked at a starbase.

Or microbial life could be very plentiful throughout the universe.

Yes, this. Look at how long and how thoroughly we had to investigate Mars before we found potential traces of life there. Although I'd imagine that the process would be much faster by the TOS era, it's probably no less painstaking.

There's also the idea that space is BIG, so that it's highly unlikely that any Federation vessel will ever swing by this way again, and certainly not in Khan's lifetime.

Note: that even Spock talks about revisiting the planet a hundred years hence. Khan blames Kirk for never checking on him afterwards, but it doesn't sound as though the Starfleet did regular patrols of that sector. It was an isolated, distant world in a largely unexplored corner of the galaxy, far from the beaten track . . . which fits with idea that, years later, the Reliant was conducting its top-secret Genesis project way out in the middle of nowhere where nobody ever goes.

You've definitely put some thought into this, Greg. One might even think that you'd written a book or three on the subject...

 

[Timo]

The director of the project disagrees with you: "If there's so much as a microbe down there, the show's off!"

I know - I'm just disputing the "down there" part. If and when there are extremophiles deep within the bedrock, they won't interact with the experiment too much...

Essentially, Terrell ruined the experiment by removing his helmet and contaminating the entire planet. But that was after he had already seen Khan's potted plants achieve the same.

The Kirk of the first season especially probably only checked in with Starfleet on the rare occasions that he docked at a starbase.

Which makes it all the weirder in "The Menagerie" when we learn there's "subspace buzz" that carries all sorts of Facebook-level trivialities and Kirk only avoids hearing it because Spock somehow intercepts it and censors out the bits about Pike. Apparently, Kirk had been within the range of these comms for "months", so why wouldn't important command decisions also generally flow with equal fluency?

There are times when Kirk is isolated. There are times when Kirk makes himself isolated. And then there are these giant bubbles around starbases and other UFP assets that enable Kirk to clear things with his superiors if he so chooses.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

There are times when Kirk is isolated. There are times when Kirk makes himself isolated. And then there are these giant bubbles around starbases and other UFP assets that enable Kirk to clear things with his superiors if he so chooses.

Like many things with Star Trek, they tend to just go with whatever works best for that week's story.

 

[Drone]

There's also the idea that space is BIG, so that it's highly unlikely that any Federation vessel will ever swing by this way again, and certainly not in Khan's lifetime.

Note: that even Spock talks about revisiting the planet a hundred years hence. Khan blames Kirk for never checking on him afterwards, but it doesn't sound as though the Starfleet did regular patrols of that sector. It was an isolated, distant world in a largely unexplored corner of the galaxy, far from the beaten track . . . which fits with idea that, years later, the Reliant was conducting its top-secret Genesis project way out in the middle of nowhere where nobody ever goes.

I think I always took Spock's comment to mean that the time frame he mentioned would be sufficient to adequately judge the efforts that Khan et al. had made in their venture, not that the destination was either distant enough or lacking in known interest otherwise, that it would likely be one hundred years or so before there would be much of a chance that Starfleet would be in that vicinity again. The latter contention wasn't validated by the dialogue at the end, which only said that Enterprise was on course for the system.

Well, my apparent misreading of that goes to show, I suppose, the value of reading a book or two from time to time.

 

[BK613]

^^ Drone, I always interpreted that statement the same way, that Spock was expressing his curiosity in what progress that Khan and Co. would make, not that it would be a hundred years before someone came calling again.

Anyway, some interesting points while I was away.

Why is the Enterprise traversing this empty sector of space?
One possibility may be found in the previous episode, stardate-wise, Tomorrow is Yesterday. The Enterprise is out of its assigned area because of the time travel shenanigans and is traveling back to where it belongs along an unconventional route. Additionally (or alternatively,) Spock may have chosen this low-traveled area near Earth as a safer place to arrive at from said shenanigans.

How out of touch would Kirk be?
Not very.
Two items suggest this. One, the Botany Bay is in this sector. The episode consistently references the BB as an interplanetary craft with "simple nuclear-powered engines" that takes years just to move around the Solar System. Such a vessel would not get very far out into the interstellar void, not in the two centuries that elapsed since the its launch. That puts this sector very near Earth, no more than 200 ly distant and probably a lot less.
Second, the episode establishes that the Enterprise is towing the BB to Starbase 12 at warp 2. So there is a Starbase close enough to travel to at warp 2 with another vessel in tow. Surely subspace radio is faster than warp 2 or at the very least, the communication delay is minimal. With Khan contained, Kirk could wait for the reply.

How prevalent is life in the TOS universe?
Well there is this line from Metamorphosis:

Kirk: ...and everything's alive, Cochrane. Life everywhere. We estimate there are millions of planets with intelligent life.

And this one from Balance of Terror:

McCoy: ...In this galaxy, there's a mathematical probability of three million Earth-type planets.

Millions of planets with intelligent life has to mean billions with with just life. So Timo is probably right, no life is rarer than life in the TOS universe, especially if you are looking for a world without it in a place where planets will almost always have it, i.e, the habitable zone of a star where liquid water would be present.

My take anyway, FWIW.

 

[Timo]

Regarding "Tomorrow is Yesterday", the episode's premise of a black star flinging our heroes into the atmosphere of Earth obviously works the better, the closer that black star is to Earth. ST:TMP tells us black holes close to Sol (perhaps deep within the Sol system, even) are an accepted feature in Trek. Perhaps Kirk was always headed for Earth, and then was to launch outwards again, the time travel shenanigans not altering these plans in the slightest?

The episode that follows, "Return of the Archons", has Kirk on a planned and scheduled mission to search for the Archon - or at least there's no indication of the usual "stumbling onto" in the plotline. Perhaps Kirk in "Space Seed" is retracing an early Earthling adventure, possibly taking the exact route originally taken by the Archon? (We don't know how exactly Kirk ended up believing the ship was lost at Beta III; might have been simply a line of search.)

^^ Drone, I always interpreted that statement the same way, that Spock was expressing his curiosity in what progress that Khan and Co. would make, not that it would be a hundred years before someone came calling again.

Ditto. That doesn't exclude the possibility that the planet might not see any visitors in the upcoming centuries, though. And Spock's speculation would be pretty irrelevant if it were inevitable that Khan be rediscovered in a few years! (Or if Khan's death on the cruel world were inevitable, for that matter.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BK613]

^^ Kirk seems genuinely surprised at arriving at Earth and Spock has to explain that the E was heading Earthward. That doesn't mean that they weren't heading in from the outer reaches to the last known position of the Archon, lost during an earlier wave of exploration closer to Earth. And that they were resuming that mission, only from a near Earth starting point. I like the way these three episodes can dovetail.
Nice point on the TMP black hole tie-in.

 

[Timo]

Hmm. Kirk is pretty explicit that they were headed for Starbase 9, which presumably is not Earth or another Sol location. But was he perhaps headed for SB 9 from Earth, explaining the cosmic coincidence of where they ended up?

Alas, Kirk then dictates a warning about a black star "in the area of SB 9", not "in the area of Sol in the direction of the spacelane to SB 9". Granted, he's still pretty confused from the time travel, but still...

Did Kirk have anything to hide in this episode? He essentially killed two (copies of) people - was that in accordance with Starfleet rules? Would it be Kirk's responsibility to hide the existence of time travel, or his superiors'?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gary Mitchell]

I don't remember anyone mentioning a black hole in The Motion Picture.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Decker said that Voyager 6 was believed to have disappeared into one...which suggests one within a 20th century probe's crawl of Earth.

 

[Gary Mitchell]

^Thanks. I had forgotten.

 

[RogueVasad]

Regarding Khan I find the idea that new evidence of what he had done was discovered after the Primesverse and Nuverse split extremely unlikely and given that the history of the two universe's was identical until long after Khan was exiled his actions before exile were identical.

And in TWOK novelization his actions on Regula are so outside his normal behavior they horrify his most loyal follower who basically stays with Khan because he swore an oath to Khan, he has nowhere else to go, and he is clinging to the hope that once Kirk is dead Khan will change back to what he used to be like. (I find the last one extremely unlikely but him clinging to that hope does show that genetically enhanced humans still have human minds despite their enhancements)

 

[Timo]

Khan being a horrible "war criminal" could well be a dirty lie by Admiral Marcus. But somehow Khan nevertheless is in the 24th century considered such a bogeyman that his role in human history justifies the pretty much universally supported Kill Julian Bashir movement. What other reason could there exist for said antipathy than Khan having been a monster?

I'm sure there could be other reasons there. "Space Seed" sort of paints Khan as the best-mannered of the Augments, meaning he could be the generic name for the for the most part monstrous lot, while himself without sin. Or something.

Decker said that Voyager 6 was believed to have disappeared into one

Interestingly, Decker said "what they used to call a black hole". Did people stop using that terminology for the phenomenon later on? Is this why Kirk says "black star" instead in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", and why Janeway speaks of "Class IV singularities" rather than black holes? Or does Decker mean that the phenomenon that made Voyager Six disappear was soon discovered to be something else than a black hole?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Interestingly, Decker said "what they used to call a black hole". Did people stop using that terminology for the phenomenon later on?

IIRC, black holes had only recently been discovered when TMP was being written and filmed. Back then, people thought a black hole was something that a ship could fall into, pass through, and emerge on the other side. Nowadays, we know that anything that actually falls into a black hole would just be crushed and destroyed. So obviously V'Ger encountered a wormhole, not a black hole. This must be what Decker was referring to.

At least TMP's creators had the presence of mind to allow for that possibility (i.e. that the true nature of black holes would one day be discovered). Movies like The Black Hole, on the other hand, just ran with it, and depicted black holes as giant bathtub drains in space...

 

[T'Girl]

Hmm. Kirk is pretty explicit that they were headed for Starbase 9, which presumably is not Earth or another Sol location

But they were heading in Sol's general direction. It like driving from Los Angeles to San Diego, if you overshoot San Diego you end up in Tijuana.

The black star was the area of San Diego.